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UrbanMonk

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11th April, 2011 at 19:21:20 -


Originally Posted by SiLVERFIRE
To stand your ground and claim to be absolutely sure about something you have zero proof for, is stupid.


Oh I agree.


Originally Posted by SiLVERFIRE
And you telling me to quote the sources on The History channel is exactly like me telling you to quote the sources of the bible, and you seemed pretty reluctant, so forgive me if I do too. I haven't seen the show that I gathered all this information from, nor do I even know the particular name or even the particular show it was from, so for me to gather my sources - though possible, would be way too much effort for someone who's not going to return the effort but instead just run his finger down the bible and quote it.


Yep and the History channel knows this, they can tell you what ever they want and you'd believe it.
You can get anyone to believe anything as long as you mix a little truth in it too.

I know you'll prolly try to use this argument against the Bible too, but here's something to think about.

In the book of Revelations Danial had a vision that foretold of Modern war machines, tanks, helicopters, and other predictions. This was thousands of years before they existed, so explain to me this. If God didn't give him the vision who did? I quoted one of the scriptures a few posts up for your reference.


Originally Posted by SiLVERFIRE
So if it seems as though I've been blindly swatting debate toward you, it's really been quite consistent and focused on you in particular. I've said a few things here and there, but I don't typically go out and start disagreeing with people with faith - anymore, I used to when I was an atheist.

No it's fine, I'm glad you're interested. You're one of the more knowledgeable people on this subject on this thread anyway.


Originally Posted by SiLVERFIRE
you cannot let this book derail your grasp on the reality.

I have quite a grasp on reality thank you very much. lol.

But on a more serious note, I cannot honestly say that the stories in the Bible aren't or could not be true. You see, I know too much. I've seen too much. I saw a man die on the alter, and he was dead for 10 minutes, according to the paramedics. The church who had all seen him dead began to pray, as soon as the noise of prayer went up his heart monitor came to life. It was the craziest thing that I ever witnessed. I can still see the look on his face, he was white as a sheet and blood was coming from his mouth. It was hard to sleep for a little while after that.

He's still alive today.

Another time, in fact 3 days ago, a friend of mine was healed of lupus. She was diagnosed with it a year ago, we prayed and prayed for her, and three days ago she text me that after going to the doctor to do blood tests they called her and said that they couldn't find the lupus anywhere, nor where the anti-bodies present. The doctor doesn't know what's going on.


Now I'm not saying it happens like this all the time. Certainly there have been times where a healing didn't happen. I don't know why, and I don't question God, that's up to him.

Edited by UrbanMonk

 
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Phredreeke

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11th April, 2011 at 20:03:03 -


Originally Posted by UrbanMonk

In the book of Revelations Danial had a vision that foretold of Modern war machines, tanks, helicopters, and other predictions. This was thousands of years before they existed, so explain to me this. If God didn't give him the vision who did? I quoted one of the scriptures a few posts up for your reference.



The book of Revelation can be interpreted in many different ways.


Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.



Neron Kaisar, when transliterated into hebrew, has the number 666.


And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.



Guess whos face and name was on the roman coins?

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UrbanMonk

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11th April, 2011 at 21:31:11 -

The scripture I posted has no alternate interpretation.
In fact most didn't understand a lot of it up until recently. Now that the prophesies are coming true.

What are you trying to say with the rest of your post?

 
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Phredreeke

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11th April, 2011 at 22:32:24 -

That Nero was the beast.

 
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Silveraura

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12th April, 2011 at 04:22:33 -


Originally Posted by UrbanMonk

Yep and the History channel knows this, they can tell you what ever they want and you'd believe it.
You can get anyone to believe anything as long as you mix a little truth in it too.



That is EXACTLY what I'm saying about you with the bible. Thing is though, it makes a lot more sense to believe that a book, over hundreds of years old, has been edited and changed many times to suite the needs of the current day society at the time, than it does to believe that the word of the bible is absolutely positively the word of God, spoken through the mere morals who wrote it.

 
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MasterM



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12th April, 2011 at 06:45:12 -

So I didn't read any of this thread. Can somebody sum it up for me? Who believes in God and who doesn't?

 
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UrbanMonk

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12th April, 2011 at 16:56:28 -


Originally Posted by SiLVERFIRE
Thing is though, it makes a lot more sense to believe that a book, over hundreds of years old, has been edited and changed many times to suite the needs of the current day society at the time, than it does to believe that the word of the bible is absolutely positively the word of God, spoken through the mere morals who wrote it.



Brandon, the Bible hasn't been edited.
Every known copy of the individual books of the Bible from the Torah(1312 BCE) to the New Testament (AD 50) to the Geneva Bible(1599 AD) to the KJV(1604 AD) are %99.9 accurate of one another. The only differences being the wording of the same information. This is more or less a condensed form of the information, but the point is that the information itself hasn't been changed. No sign of editing anywhere.

On top of that the dead sea scrolls ( http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/scrolls/ ) are %99.9 accurate to the Bible we have today. And according to carbon-14 dating they are dated to originate from the third century B.C.E. to 68 C.E.

There is absolutely no sign of editing anywhere in any known copies of any of the books contained in the Bible.


The only thing you seem to have a problem with is the existence of the God mentioned in these books.

 
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Simon Czentnár



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13th April, 2011 at 18:17:54 -


Originally Posted by Phredreeke
That Nero was the beast.



Nero was dead when John wrote the Revelation, wasn't he?

By the way, there could be many explanations for a prophecy. The first can be found in the age of the formation of the prophecy (for example: the beast was Nero).
The interesting thing is that there are better explanations for many prophecies that happen(ed) in the far future. Like Isaiah 53.
The prophet thinks that he made a statement about a man, about his age, or about the society. He did not know that he'd got a forecast from the future.

Sorry for my poor English! This's an interesting thread, by the way!

 
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Phredreeke

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13th April, 2011 at 19:27:04 -

As I said, it can be interpreted in many ways. That applies to any prophecy and not just Revelations. For example here's a bit from Nostradamus



Beasts ferocious from hunger will swim across rivers:
The greater part of the region will be against the Hister,
The great one will cause it to be dragged in an iron cage,
When the German child will observe nothing.



The treaty of Versailles put post-WWI Germany in huge debts, which allowed Hitler to come to power.
Hister sounds like Hitler. GREAT Britain was one of the first countries to declare war on Germany after the invasion of Poland.
Iron Cage could refer to the bunker in Berlin where Hitler killed himself. Alternatively, after WWII many eastern european countries became soviet satellite states, placing them behind the IRON curtain.
The germans were blinded by Hitler's propaganda.

Edited by Phredreeke

 
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13th April, 2011 at 20:38:34 -


Originally Posted by Phredreeke
For example here's a bit from Nostradamus



Yeah, that's an interesting thing with Nostradamus. As I know, he has made so many predictions, that there SHOULD be some of them that could be interpreted as a fulfilled prophecy. I am not quite learned in this topic, so I could be wrong.
By the way, prophets in the Bible and Nostradamus are quite different. In the age of Nostradamus and also in our thinking are prophets people who can make predictions. That's not so simple in the Bible.
That wasn't an objection on your reply, it's only a comment.
The reason for multiple explanations could be the nature of predictions. They aren't concrete. But sometimes one explanation fits the best. That's because I mentioned Isaiah 53. In this case there are many interpretations. Somebody says: that's about Isaiah. Others say: it's about Israel. But there's always something that calls the association into question. I think the New Testament answered the question the best.

Edited by Simon Czentnár

 
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SoftWarewolf

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16th April, 2011 at 00:01:29 -

the fact that people are still religious, astonishes me..

i wouldn't really get involved here.. but what exactly is god supposed to be?
and what does "higher force" mean? is it similar to any other force?

if god or that force disappeared right now, how would the world be different?

 
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Johnny Look

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16th April, 2011 at 00:56:28 -

The bible is so subjective people will find countless meanings for the same thing and use that as an answer to almost everything you'll throw at them. I even read in here someone talking about tanks and helicopters in the bible, wtf ?
People even manage to take subliminal meanings from the genesis, the adam and eve story and other stories which are now clearly proved as false.
Having lived and been taught sunday school in two countries with distinct cultures but following the same faith, I've heard completely different interpretations of the same stories. Muslims have one interpretation, jews another, christians another etc...
This discussion was interesting until people started bringing the bible to the table constantly. It's pointless and that's why some people feel like they are discussing with a wall. I gave up on this thread because either no one wasn't able to answer any of my questions or answered with the bible. There's got to be something else that leads someone to believe in god other than what's written in the bible, so I think this would be a much nicer and healthier discussion for both sides if the bible wasn't constantly being brought up.

 
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UrbanMonk

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16th April, 2011 at 04:39:11 -


Originally Posted by Johnny Look
People even manage to take subliminal meanings from the genesis, the adam and eve story and other stories which are now clearly proved as false.


Nothing in the Bible has ever been proven false. Anything supernatural that happened doesn't need to be explained since God can control has creation anyway he likes.
As for everything else such as history, and true science there are no contradictions.

As long as you discuss God with anyone that actually knows God you're going to hear about the Bible.

And yes, there are multiple meanings to most everything in the Bible, that's what's so great about it.
No matter how many times you read it you'll always find something you didn't notice before, or something that's relevant to what you might be going through.


Originally Posted by SoftWarewolf
the fact that people are still religious, astonishes me..


Even in China where religion isn't allowed, they still have underground churches, there's more to this that just "heaven insurance."
(ignoring the state sponsored church, which is a joke)


Originally Posted by SoftWarewolf
i wouldn't really get involved here.. but what exactly is god supposed to be?


God is a spirit, a being beyond time and space that existed before anything and created everything.


Originally Posted by SoftWarewolf
and what does "higher force" mean? is it similar to any other force?


"higher force" is one of those silly politically correct terms that people use when they talk about religion.


Originally Posted by SoftWarewolf
if god or that force disappeared right now, how would the world be different?


I don't know, but I'm sure the answer to that question would be the same as the answer to this question:
What if no one had any morals, or a conscience?

 
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Johnny Look

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16th April, 2011 at 15:22:13 -

"Nothing in the Bible has ever been proven false. Anything supernatural that happened doesn't need to be explained since God can control has creation anyway he likes.
As for everything else such as history, and true science there are no contradictions."

I really didn't want to enter this discussion again but... how can you even say that ?
You can't just deny evidence when it's in front of everyone's eyes.
For instance, god didn't create adam and eve, humanity evolved from the monkeys during millions of years we didn't just pop out from nowhere. God didn't create earth with his bare hands either, earth and every planet on the universe was formed through accretion. The bible states earth is immovable and flat, we know both theories are clearly false.
No contradictions between the bible and science you say ?

"I don't know, but I'm sure the answer to that question would be the same as the answer to this question:
What if no one had any morals, or a conscience?"
I don't believe in god or religion in general, does that mean I have no morals or conscience ?
The question softwarewolf asked and yours have nothing to do with each other. We have morals and conscience because we are an intelligent race, even pets have a small dose of both.

 
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Phredreeke

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16th April, 2011 at 17:53:36 -

Who was created first, Adam or the animals? Well it depends on if you read the first or second chapter of Genesis!

 
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