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s-m-r

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1st February, 2011 at 21:11:32 -


Originally Posted by UrbanMonk

God will only let humans go so far. It's part of the free choice that he gave us.



Ouch...! That statement was actually painful to read.

Can you explain how establishing limits enables and/or encourages anyone to act in free choice?

 
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2nd February, 2011 at 00:57:03 -

@Urbanmonk: On the grounds of asking you who you think you are for accusing any work of knowing God to be incorrect, I find it absolutely unnecessary to have to try and prove to you why those three methods are incorrect. Why does gravity pull things down? Why do out need an explaination for why we can't just live in a world. Without gravity? To most people, some things just are. Sort of like how you can believe some things are wrong and no one really knows why other than your God said.
So tell me, why is it wrong for someone to believe that God exists in an animal form or that's there are more than one God? I personally believe that God is a divine force which exist which everything and many wiccans will worship many Gods, most common being the living baring eternal Goddess and the sacrificial God and many of my traditions are based around just that. And I don't see anything wrong with believing in and worshiping both a God or Goddess or a divine energy which exists within everything.
Sorry if this message seems a little rushed but I'm typing it out on my phone and I need to head back because I'm at work right now.

But yeah, please explain to me why those three things you mentioned are not covered by the idea that everyone can see God their own way.

 
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2nd February, 2011 at 01:15:51 -

Sorry, double post. Word.

Edited by Silveraura

 
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2nd February, 2011 at 03:03:54 -


Originally Posted by s-m-r

Originally Posted by UrbanMonk

God will only let humans go so far. It's part of the free choice that he gave us.



Ouch...! That statement was actually painful to read.

Can you explain how establishing limits enables and/or encourages anyone to act in free choice?



Free choice is neither encouraged nor discouraged, it's just something you do everyday.

This is of course "free choice" in the sense that the only choices you can make are those available to you at any given point.
If you don't have your hand on a door knob you can't turn it.

Our free choice is given to us because God wants us to chose to serve him, like W3R3W00F said earlier.


Originally Posted by SiLVERFIRE
But yeah, please explain to me why those three things you mentioned are not covered by the idea that everyone can see God their own way.



Well mostly for the reasons HorrendousGames gave in his post quoting Epicurus.

I'm not saying that those things aren't god's to some people, because in all honesty anyone can make whatever they want be their "god."
We're in agreement there, as we've already established.

I'm talking about that "...unlimitedly[sic] powerful God that supposedly loves us..."

If you want to trace everything back to a *first* beginning, it can only be 1..., not 3, not 100.
To say that your God lies is silly since everything that a perfect God says then becomes truth.

If you think that a human or an animal can be god then we're talking about two different things.

 
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Silveraura

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2nd February, 2011 at 04:15:40 -

Anything that anyone believes is God, is God to them and if it truly does work for them, and as I said, assuming they are not harming you, then you have no right to say they're wrong. Because to them, you are wrong, and you can't say you'd be too keen to accept someone telling you that you were wrong too.

If your idea of deity is capable of lying, then it is capable of lying.
If your idea of deity is split into many, then it is split into many.
If your idea of deity is in animal form such as totems, it is still a form of deity, just in the form of an animal.

And really, I think that's a better word for it. Because when I say God, I feel like I'm kind of talking about the Christian God, and that's not the case here. I'm really talking about deity in general. So if that's cause for any confusion on my part, I apologize.

 
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2nd February, 2011 at 05:33:24 -

I have always beleive in God. Even if I didn't, I would still beleive in a higher power. I don't beleive in coincidences or such, I beleive that something or specifically someone plans out our lifes. I beleive in mild-predestination, I beleive we have choices that we can take to lead us down certain paths.

But despite my relentless beleif in God, I still beleive in science and the theory of evolution. I beleive that the bible is written in a highly coded language during several of the books such as Genesis, and of course the highly debate book of revelation. I think that God would have sent down the cells that evolved into monkeys and eventually us. When the bible speaks of creation in Genisis, it speaks in days. Which may seem absurd, but what is a day to God? Time means nothing to God because he is timeless.

Don't think the bible supports evolution? Look at this little summary from the top of my head!=
God is said to have covered the earth in water during the beginning and then created the creatures of the sea. Next he made the land and creeping creatures of the sea. And then he made man.

Sounds like evolution to me! Science says that the Earth started as a great mass of water. Then the creatures evolved to live on the land. And evolution the creeping creatures, including monkeys and such, evolved into hominids and man kind! Sounds like a pretty close fit to me.

 
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2nd February, 2011 at 06:21:21 -

Now see, Wiiman seems to be looking at the bible in an excellent way. He's taking it a lot less literal and seeing more meaning behind it instead of using it like a history book.
Thank you Wiiman, excellent input.

 
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2nd February, 2011 at 07:11:29 -

A problem arises in religion when you always have to be right, like most religions proclaim. While the search for the meaning of life should be a personal question, there is constant bombardment from every point of view that claims they are right. I know personally that I do not go out of my way to try to convince people other wise, but if the situation arises I will voice my opinion, which I'm sure (or at least hope) most of everyone involved in this thread does the same. I find it highly insulting when someone preaches to me how bad of a sinner I am and how I'm going to hell. I've mostly received this from Christians and Muslims. I've never been evangelized by Buddhists or Jews... and it's a shame Wicca gets such a bad rap because it's really quite harmless (well, except to Mainstream Christianity, but then again, most fundamentalists hate everyone except their own).

You can't argue that organized religion is for nothing more than money. In terms of Christianity, Jesus himself preached against wealth, yet most churches in America are huge, expensive, and guess what? They pay no taxes. It's kind of insulting to go into a rundown neighborhood and see dilapidated buildings all around while the church stands tall and gorgeous, and is still asking for more money from it's followers. Sure there are plenty of charities, but with how much goes in and how much goes out, it's depressing. Occasionally, I will attend the local church on a mission, the last one I went with was to Gulfport, Mississippi and New Orleans to help rebuild houses, mow lawns and remove damaged problematic trees. Each time I've gone on a mission, I've always had to pay my way, as with every other people attending the mission, I wouldn't be surprised if most churches functioned the same way. On top of that, most of the times I've gone, I've had to deal with ignorant elitist teenagers that think only the fact that they are going means they're doing these people a favor, when it came down to doing actual work it was like trying to organize a pack of wild retarded chickens. It's not a damn vacation, you're here to help, and telling homeless black people about your damn ipod doesn't. Doing missions should be left to people that actually care, not someone trying to get brownie points for their college (which ironically, most colleges and jobs don't care about church missions, especially for that fact).

Point is, organized religion is pointless, and all is is one more institution trying to extort money from people. I have NO problem with religion itself, but the aspect of control, extortion, evangelism and manipulating public agenda just has to go.

 
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s-m-r

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2nd February, 2011 at 12:56:16 -

I just wanted to post this little link here, to aid those who have beef with Fundamentalist Christians:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article574768.ece

Looks like the Catholic Church has a beef with them too.

 
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2nd February, 2011 at 15:50:28 -

urbanmonk:

"America has all the best war equipment in the world, now tell me how many wars they've fought (and won) in 6 days? "
The US never attacked one of their neighbors for relatively tiny pieces of land, but if they did I'm pretty sure they would take less than 6 days.

"Proverbs 14:34
"Righteousness exalteth a nation: but sin [is] a reproach to any people."

Christans wouldn't be each others enemies. "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II

There are hundred more wars, and you could even include civil wars in christian countries.
In addition, allah and god is the same thing yet islamic and christian countries never got along well.
The crusades would be a good example, both believed in the same god but in the end the christians lost the war so perhaps they can claim their victory was a miracle too ?

"If these nations would have repented they would be spared, Nineveh was spared.
Sodom was given a chance but they refused, Lot told them over and over, but they mocked him. "

This shows exactly how ridiculous some supposedly "god interventions" can be and how human god is described in the bible. They mocked him, they got destroyed. Personally if I was god I wouldn't destroy and entire city even if the entire population gathered to mock and insult me in unison, yet god did it. Does it make me more benevolent than him ? It sure looks like it, specially considering every person in that city is supposedly his "son".

"Israel is so small compared to the rest of those countries that attacked them, and yet they destroyed the entire Egyptian army.

You can deny the miracles if you want, but you can't deny the fact that winning such a impossible war isn't a miracle itself! "

What miracle ? It was no impossible war, not even close. Israel can be a small country but they are definitely not weak militarily. They are actually vastly more powerful than any of the other countries involved in the 6 day war, which in addition to the US and england's financial help it's hard not to think of any other winner other than israel.
And no they didn't destroy the entire egyptian army, I'm pretty sure of that.

"Free choice is neither encouraged nor discouraged, it's just something you do everyday. "
"Our free choice is given to us because God wants us to chose to serve him, like W3R3W00F said earlier. "

How can you say that when the bible basically says we will burn forever in hell if we don't honor god ? Not only free choice is discouraged, it comes with a pretty heavy punishment. For god there is no such thing as "free choice", you either believe or you go to hell. That sounds like a pretty ridiculous threat actually.

"Don't think the bible supports evolution? Look at this little summary from the top of my head!=
God is said to have covered the earth in water during the beginning and then created the creatures of the sea. Next he made the land and creeping creatures of the sea. And then he made man.

Sounds like evolution to me! Science says that the Earth started as a great mass of water. Then the creatures evolved to live on the land. And evolution the creeping creatures, including monkeys and such, evolved into hominids and man kind! Sounds like a pretty close fit to me. "

The bible's definition of the creation of earth is exactly the same definition anyone would have at the time the genesis was written, it's plain obvious in some parts and simply wrong in others. We know life without water is impossible, we know we are not the first creatures on earth, and the creatures of the sea weren't the first living creatures on earth. Some slightly more complicated concepts that didn't exist at that time such as micro-organisms for example don't make an appearance in the bible. Coincidence ? I think not.


 
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2nd February, 2011 at 15:50:53 -

I actually have some respect for the pagan beliefs because I can see where they are derived from. An appreciation of natural cycles classified by some deity need not be believed as a matter of fact but as a symbolism for the natural processes we rely on to exist, and to give thanks for the equilibrium we exist in.

The god of most other religions appears to be a blip in the self awareness of humanity. You can't deny the attribution of human characteristics. I always feel that the argument about these gods is too far ahead of itself. Start from the bottom and work up to the question. Observe the universe and tell me where the question of such a god comes from. It is mans disbelief of the creation of something from nothing, and the belief that "nothing" exists. There are people who will redefine what the word god means to sound slightly more logical, but I don't see any reason to do that. The universe is made out of some stuff, why call that god? I wouldn't group the two together.

In most conversations I have had with christians, the defence of their religion is often inspired by on-the-spot reasoning. May I remind you that your religion is handed down to you from the teachings and morals as depicted in a holy text, and for every word you say there ought to be a quote for your defence. Allowing yourself to be more malleable than that is clear evidence to my eyes that strong belief fuels a powerful desire to defend the group you attribute yourself to. The bible is the only place where you can discover any notion of the behaviour of the god of the christian religion, so to go beyond that would be inventing it as you go along. You can redefine the nature of god and document it, and that is somehow evidence.

Allow me to make an argument, change the wikipedia page and then reference you to it. It must be right, wikipedia says so.

Not all religions can be right. I would invite a christian, say, to argue why Islam is not the true religion. I suspect the points raised would be like putting him in an argument against himself.

 
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3rd February, 2011 at 00:02:36 -

Wow, alot of stuff to comment on!!


Originally Posted by SiLVERFIRE
And really, I think that's a better word for it. Because when I say God, I feel like I'm kind of talking about the Christian God, and that's not the case here. I'm really talking about deity in general. So if that's cause for any confusion on my part, I apologize.



Ok, yeah, we're talking about two different things.


Originally Posted by Wiiman
I beleive that the bible is written in a highly coded language during several of the books such as Genesis, and of course the highly debate book of revelation.



Ever heard of "The Bible Code?"

The Original Hebrew text lacked spaces, if you skip letters at certain intervals you can create new sentences. (Only in the Hebrew version)


Originally Posted by Wiiman
Sounds like evolution to me! Science says that the Earth started as a great mass of water. Then the creatures evolved to live on the land. And evolution the creeping creatures, including monkeys and such, evolved into hominids and man kind! Sounds like a pretty close fit to me.



Day 1- God create light and darkness (The creation of physics, or all the energy required for the universe)
Day 2- God separates the water from the atmosphere (Water canopy theory, pre-flood earth conditions, (it never rained yet remember?) )
Day 3- God separated the water from the land, and created vegetation
Day 4- Sun, Moon, Stars, Days and Nights
Day 5- Living creatures of the sea and air, blessed them to multiply
Day 6- God Created the Animals to fill the earth (land) and he created man and woman and blessed them to fill the earth, dominion over the animals.
Day 7- Rest.

So let's think about this, if a day isn't 24 hours and the things evolved over thousands of years instead...

How did the plants survive not having sun light for thousands of years?
At what point did the human soul evolve?
God made humans out of dirt according to the Genesis account. How does this tie in with evolution?

I agree that true science and the Bible are in agreement, but macro-evolution has never been observed
, unlike gravity.


Originally Posted by HorrendousGames
A problem arises in religion when you always have to be right



To me, it's not about being right. Its the fact that I actually believe it.

If you believe that your car will start when you turn the key, then you'll act on it.

Same with me.

I agree, there are lots of churches that are just in it for the money. Most of the mega churches just tell people what they want to hear so they'll get a bigger congregation.
It's a racket.


Originally Posted by s-m-r
I just wanted to post this little link here, to aid those who have beef with Fundamentalist Christians:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article574768.ece

Looks like the Catholic Church has a beef with them too.



(I removed this comment, I might PM it to you later)


Originally Posted by Johnny Look
There are hundred more wars, and you could even include civil wars in christian countries.
In addition, allah and god is the same thing yet islamic and christian countries never got along well.
The crusades would be a good example, both believed in the same god but in the end the christians lost the war so perhaps they can claim their victory was a miracle too ?



"Allah" means "god," but it is certainly not the same god. Please refer back to my first post.

The crusades were not done by true Christians.
That's like those crazy people that kill someone and say that god told them to.


Originally Posted by Johnny Look
How can you say that when the bible basically says we will burn forever in hell if we don't honor god ? Not only free choice is discouraged, it comes with a pretty heavy punishment. For god there is no such thing as "free choice", you either believe or you go to hell. That sounds like a pretty ridiculous threat actually.



That's assuming that "free choice" means not following God, which is not it's definition.

"Free choice" means you can chose to server God, or you can chose not to.
Repercussions for your actions are a given, whether you believe in God or not.


Originally Posted by ~Matt Esch~
Not all religions can be right. I would invite a christian, say, to argue why Islam is not the true religion. I suspect the points raised would be like putting him in an argument against himself.



I have debated one of my Muslim friends.
The Qur'an has so many references to the Bible it's not even funny. They ever talk about Jesus.

The biggest difference is that deception is encouraged in the Muslim faith, while Christians are taught that it is a sin.

Edited by UrbanMonk

 
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3rd February, 2011 at 00:55:26 -


Originally Posted by UrbanMonk
but macro-evolution has never been observed



Yeah it has, do some research. The only people that claim it has never been observed are religious types, and usually they seem to think macro evolution equates to "evolution that cannot be observed". Macro Evolution has been observed in many plant and insect species, as well as the fossil record. Simply denying the data does not mean that it doesn't exist. Unlike 'miracles', which equate to a "you should've been there" story, scientific data has to be reproducible so that someone else can test the idea and get the same results, and that stays there until it is proven false.


Originally Posted by UrbanMonk
The crusades were not done by true Christians.
That's like those crazy people that kill someone and say that god told them to.



There are so many different sects within Christianity that it's disgusting. So much time wasted bickering amongst each other over the meanings of a book. Obviously, they were Christians, just not your kind of Christian.

Who's to say that the bible itself wasn't written by crazy people that thought someone was talking to them? Obviously, people can't get away with that nowadays, but back before modern science, people used to believe almost anything.


Originally Posted by UrbanMonk
That's assuming that "free choice" means not following God, which is not it's definition.

"Free choice" means you can chose to server God, or you can chose not to.
Repercussions for your actions are a given, whether you believe in God or not.



Actually, "Free Choice" kind of means you are able to make your own decisions, it's not a duality. That's like saying "if you're not a republican, you're a democrat" or more generally "if you aren't with us, you're against us". If anything, "Free Choice" is more about choosing your own path through life, not necessarily about one single belief.

With that said, doesn't you're religion prescribe to a "divine" plan? How are we allowed to choose anything if life has already been preplanned for us? And since that's on the table, what is the point of hell? If God has already planned what we are doing, why should we be punished for what he planned for us to do? And if he has a "divine" plan, couldn't he just plan for us to not have such painful lives or does he just love watching us get punished? I bet he was a big fan of the Colosseum.

It's great that God destroyed the hell out of so many cities in biblical times, but isn't it ironic that you don't see this happen in the modern world? Don't you find it a bit odd that when modern science was developed, the amount of miraculous claims dwindled to near nothing, and those that have been claimed we're either proven fraudulent or is just the nonsensical ramblings of a madman?


Originally Posted by UrbanMonk
The Qur'an has so many references to the Bible it's not even funny. They ever talk about Jesus.



LOL, like the Christian Bible has so many similarities to most of the religions that came before it? Same story, different characters, it's called plagiarism.

 
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3rd February, 2011 at 02:45:06 -

anyone see this video? They're the most hated family in america...



 
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3rd February, 2011 at 10:12:14 -

I do believe in a higher power.

But I'm highly skeptical of most religions. Personally, I see a religion as a source of moral values to stick to. I choose a religion where morality is based on motivations rather than actions, one where humanity's role is to learn about the world and protect it from harm, one where usury and gambling are evils (something where you make money without contributing is evil in my book).

I don't see science and religion conflicting, though. If any religion says something that's confidently disproven by science, it's obviously false, and I'll cross it off my list. If any science claims a theory that's difficult or impossible to prove, like what many religions claim, then it becomes a matter of faith.

I believe that one of the religions out there must be true, because people have spent centuries thinking about this kind of thing, and I'm sure someone got it close to the truth before it was stolen by politics. Religion's always been sort of the highest morality, and anything which gives you the moral high ground gives you a strong political advantage.

 
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