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Johnny Look

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3rd February, 2011 at 12:41:27 -

No, free choice means free choice. God doesn't give you any free choice. You either serve or you don't. If you don't he sends you to hell. You are therefore forced to believe and serve a god you can't see, can't feel, can't hear and can't touch, who is both sordid and revengeful and never did anything practical for you.

 
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s-m-r

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Candle
3rd February, 2011 at 12:44:09 -

Muz: I'd respond and say that religion is not necessary for moral behaviour. There have been several books written regarding the subject of 'ethics.' Some of the more common ethical tenets include:

Do no harm.
Make things better.
Respect others.
Be fair.
Be loving.

These need no religion to be justified. In fact, one of the foremost minds on ethics indicates repeatedly and throughout his works and public appearances that there is not some religious impetus for ethics, and that even those with a self-centered mindset could adopt ethics and live effectively ascribing to them even if motivated by their own self interest. Let me also say that he does not deny the presence of ethical tenets as part of various and sundry religions, throughout the world, history, and world history.

I'm not going to go so far as to say "religion co-opted ethics," because I'm not certain which came first; maybe someone else did research on that and found conclusive evidence one way or another. There are striking coincidences and overlaps, to be certain. But regardless of its originator, the outcome can be considered the same: religion does not require ethics, and vice versa.

Bruce Weinstein, nicknamed "The Ethics Guy," has published an excellent primer of ethics in his book Life Principles: Feeling Good By Doing Good. Here's a link for more info, should anyone be interested:

http://theethicsguy.com

I personally find ethics fascinating, and additionally it appeals to my more philosophical - as opposed to religious - tendencies.

 
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UrbanMonk

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3rd February, 2011 at 19:42:46 -

@HorrendousGames-
I don't personally believe evolution, all the "evidence" can be taken one way or another way. It depends on how you look at it. None of the "evidence" is surefire proof, and there are hundreds of scientists with different opinions on the matter.

If you want to believe in evolution that fine, but whether it's real or not certainly doesn't disprove God by any stretch. Which is why I feel like this particular argument is a waste of time.


I'll just be repeating myself for the rest of your comments, and you can't back any of them up anyway.


@Johnny Look-
Sure, that's what it means. You make choices in your everyday life that bring you either closer to God or farther away.

You're not forced to do anything, you can live however you want obviously.


@s-m-r-
Maybe the reason morals were given to us by God was for the very reasons ethics were created.

Many of the laws given to the Israelites were there to protect them, even if they may not have understood them completely at the time.

Rules were given regarding sickness and how to tell if someone had leprosy, ect.

These weren't given to just have rules, they were given to protect the people, and most was just common sense.

 
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HorrendousGames

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3rd February, 2011 at 20:30:13 -


Originally Posted by UrbanMonk
I don't personally believe evolution, all the "evidence" can be taken one way or another way. It depends on how you look at it. None of the "evidence" is surefire proof, and there are hundreds of scientists with different opinions on the matter.


No, it's pretty much a landslide consensus, the only people that say otherwise aren't even biologists...


Originally Posted by UrbanMonk
If you want to believe in evolution that fine, but whether it's real or not certainly doesn't disprove God by any stretch. Which is why I feel like this particular argument is a waste of time.



Thank you! Just as disproving Evolution does not prove God exists. The only thing that conflicts with creationism is Abiogenesis, something that most of the creationist propagandists lump into evolution.


Originally Posted by UrbanMonk
I'll just be repeating myself for the rest of your comments, and you can't back any of them up anyway.



Actually, I have been... if you've not been paying attention.


Originally Posted by UrbanMonk
Maybe the reason morals were given to us by God was for the very reasons ethics were created.
Many of the laws given to the Israelites were there to protect them, even if they may not have understood them completely at the time.
Rules were given regarding sickness and how to tell if someone had leprosy, ect.
These weren't given to just have rules, they were given to protect the people, and most was just common sense.



God never gave ANY morals. Unless you believe that morals are whatever God agrees with, in which case that isn't morality, it is obedience to authority. If God commanded for you to kill someone (which is prominent throughout the bible), would you do it? Even if that person clearly did nothing wrong? What if it were your own child? I'm not asking if he 'would' do it, I'm saying if he did, would you?

What about those rules in the bible to kill entire villages because one family living in the village were pagans or non-believers? Who was that rule supposed to protect?

 
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s-m-r

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Candle
3rd February, 2011 at 20:34:00 -

@ Urban Monk: that's a pretty big maybe.

[my own rant about this multi-page argument removed]

You all win. I abdicate from this thread. Internet fail. Etc. Whatever. Have fun.

 
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Ricky

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3rd February, 2011 at 23:00:39 -

Morality, God, and Science are all very different topics. So why do I always seem them together in the same debate

 
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Silveraura

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4th February, 2011 at 01:20:23 -


Originally Posted by Muz
I do believe in a higher power.

But I'm highly skeptical of most religions. Personally, I see a religion as a source of moral values to stick to. I choose a religion where morality is based on motivations rather than actions, one where humanity's role is to learn about the world and protect it from harm, one where usury and gambling are evils (something where you make money without contributing is evil in my book).

I don't see science and religion conflicting, though. If any religion says something that's confidently disproven by science, it's obviously false, and I'll cross it off my list. If any science claims a theory that's difficult or impossible to prove, like what many religions claim, then it becomes a matter of faith.

I believe that one of the religions out there must be true, because people have spent centuries thinking about this kind of thing, and I'm sure someone got it close to the truth before it was stolen by politics. Religion's always been sort of the highest morality, and anything which gives you the moral high ground gives you a strong political advantage.



I completely and entirely agree. You seem to be describing a very pagan view of the world and religion. Interesting. I wonder how many more people think this way. And I use pagan as more of an umbrella term, under which wicca and many other faiths fall under.

 
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UrbanMonk

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4th February, 2011 at 05:03:05 -


Originally Posted by SiLVERFIRE

Originally Posted by Muz
I do believe in a higher power.

But I'm highly skeptical of most religions. Personally, I see a religion as a source of moral values to stick to. I choose a religion where morality is based on motivations rather than actions, one where humanity's role is to learn about the world and protect it from harm, one where usury and gambling are evils (something where you make money without contributing is evil in my book).

I don't see science and religion conflicting, though. If any religion says something that's confidently disproven by science, it's obviously false, and I'll cross it off my list. If any science claims a theory that's difficult or impossible to prove, like what many religions claim, then it becomes a matter of faith.

I believe that one of the religions out there must be true, because people have spent centuries thinking about this kind of thing, and I'm sure someone got it close to the truth before it was stolen by politics. Religion's always been sort of the highest morality, and anything which gives you the moral high ground gives you a strong political advantage.



I completely and entirely agree. You seem to be describing a very pagan view of the world and religion. Interesting. I wonder how many more people think this way. And I use pagan as more of an umbrella term, under which wicca and many other faiths fall under.



What? lol.

That's the complete opposite of pagan.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pagan

 
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Silveraura

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4th February, 2011 at 07:32:13 -


Originally Posted by UrbanMonk

Originally Posted by SiLVERFIRE

Originally Posted by Muz
I do believe in a higher power.

But I'm highly skeptical of most religions. Personally, I see a religion as a source of moral values to stick to. I choose a religion where morality is based on motivations rather than actions, one where humanity's role is to learn about the world and protect it from harm, one where usury and gambling are evils (something where you make money without contributing is evil in my book).

I don't see science and religion conflicting, though. If any religion says something that's confidently disproven by science, it's obviously false, and I'll cross it off my list. If any science claims a theory that's difficult or impossible to prove, like what many religions claim, then it becomes a matter of faith.

I believe that one of the religions out there must be true, because people have spent centuries thinking about this kind of thing, and I'm sure someone got it close to the truth before it was stolen by politics. Religion's always been sort of the highest morality, and anything which gives you the moral high ground gives you a strong political advantage.



I completely and entirely agree. You seem to be describing a very pagan view of the world and religion. Interesting. I wonder how many more people think this way. And I use pagan as more of an umbrella term, under which wicca and many other faiths fall under.



What? lol.

That's the complete opposite of pagan.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pagan



By YOUR definition, which just happens to be a marked "official" definition. However the definition of paganism is extremely context based. After the bible started referring to a very specific type of religion as pagans, those people began to refer to themselves as pagans. It eventually evolved to become more of an umbrella term which encompasses a wide variety of these interconnected faiths. We essentially took the name you gave us, intentionally a "bad" word, and turned it into something much better.

I'm not entirely surprised a Christian came up and tried to correct me on that though. Most others would've understood what I meant. No offense.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/paganism1.htm

Edited by Silveraura

 
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Yami



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4th February, 2011 at 10:29:59 -

Johnny Look - "God doesn't give you any free choice. You either serve or you don't."



 
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UrbanMonk

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4th February, 2011 at 15:48:25 -

@Yami-


@silverfire-
Even that definition doesn't cover what he said.

Muz's statements agree with how I feel as well, and it makes perfect sense.
It's the same sentiments my father felt when he was searching for the truth.

My father used to be an atheist, and so was his father.

Edited by UrbanMonk

 
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Silveraura

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4th February, 2011 at 18:18:28 -


Originally Posted by UrbanMonk
@Yami-


@silverfire-
Even that definition doesn't cover what he said.

Muz's statements agree with how I feel as well, and it makes perfect sense.
It's the same sentiments my father felt when he was searching for the truth.

My father used to be an atheist, and so was his father.



Okay, do some more research outside of Christianity, make connections, and learn more about things like more modern takes on things such as paganism, because I'm not going to pull open and quote a whole section of a book which describes how what he said can easily fall under the umbrella of pagan theology. I gave you a short description and a link I found which disproves what you were trying to prove. You need to do some homework too, if you're going to try to discuss this kind of stuff.

I do not believe any particular religion can classify anyone as stupid, but when you don't acknowledge or open your mind to other possibilities, you do come across as stupid or ignorant. With all do respect, this is not a personal attack, but merely a heads up. Please look beyond your bible and at many other non-Christian sources before you laugh and tell other people they're wrong. I knew what I was saying when I said it.

 
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UrbanMonk

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4th February, 2011 at 20:56:42 -

You have no clue how much I know.
Like I said ealier, I've heard just about everything.

However I've never heard anyone use pagan incorrectly until now.

I've said all there is to say at this point anyhow.
I love you all!

EDIT: don't hate me Brandon..still friends right?

Edited by UrbanMonk

 
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HorrendousGames

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4th February, 2011 at 21:24:59 -

There's a difference between saying that you know a lot and have heard everything, and demonstrating that knowledge is available to you. Usually those sentences are coupled with "no one can convince me otherwise". You have, in the course of these 9 pages, used certain misconceptions as fact, which inclines me to agree with Silverfire, although I wouldn't put it as harshly as he did, I would say something more along the lines of that you claim to know more about the subject than you actually do, which saying that won't actually get you anywhere anyways, it's almost like saying "I'm smarter than you, so take my word for it". But it's not your fault, I used to say the same thing when I was a Christian, despite not actually knowing a lot. Often in Christianity, pastors are given a lot of trust, and usually in that position, they'll offer quick distorted views of other religions. Take for instance, Kent Hovind likes to run around and claim that he knows all about evolution because he's a doctor and had been teaching science for 10 years. Go figure his doctorate is in Christian Education and he taught for 10 years at a school he started. That's like those infomercials that sell diet pills and the doctor that endorses it is a chiropractor. When people like this choose to spread their message through indoctrination, it's really tough to shake their propaganda as it's been drilled into your head for so long that it is "the truth".

And we love you too!

 
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UrbanMonk

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4th February, 2011 at 22:17:10 -

Yes Horrendous whatever you say.

*pats head*

 
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