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AndyUK

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14th December, 2008 at 15:06:05 -

Just a thought I had.
Ive noticed a few comments over the years encouraging people to ditch MMF2 and learn a 'real programming language'. Sometimes to answer a pretty basic problem.

I don't understand what part of MMF isn't real.

Don't a lot of commercial games use tools to speed up development? Companies license engines and middleware and such. What if i made my own tools in C++? does that make the game 'not made with a real programming language'.

What do you guys think?

Edited by AndyUK

 
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14th December, 2008 at 15:10:01 -

MMF is not a programming language.
It's a tool to make things with.



Edited by alastair john jack

 
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14th December, 2008 at 15:19:40 -

yop, i think it's not a programming language. but it does NOT want to be a programming language.

imho MMF is about game creating. you have to know a lot of things, for example about programming too to make a good engine, or the tecnical part of the game strong, but this is all about the ideas. I mean, it's about what you can do. and i dont mean the programming part of this thing. i mean the graphichs, musics, and ideas. its about the GAME. about the GAMEPLAY. about the FUN.

and i know a lot of ppl too, who just contemn MMF because "it's not a programming language". but none of them made any game complete game yet ;>

 
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14th December, 2008 at 15:27:35 -

I think it is in a way...
Since it's still a lot of coding involved.
Rpg makers would be an example of not a programming language.

mmf2 is like a programming language without so much typing involved.
its a programming fizzle

 
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14th December, 2008 at 15:35:28 -

TBH I don't think I'd want to try and learn a programming language, the click products are designed to allow proffesional-quality games (depending on how good you are) with ease. I don't think they're recognised enough, really.

 
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14th December, 2008 at 15:57:07 -

You realise the power of MMF when you sit back and look at various Super NES games etc and realise that you can infact recreate pretty much all of them flawlessly in MMF.

 
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14th December, 2008 at 16:37:29 -

MMF isn't a programming language, that's a fact.
It doesn't involve any coding either, as most coding is already done all you have to do is give the program instructions (events) to activate one or more actions that were already embedded within MMF and that will be displayed in MMF's engine.
Some tools like Blitz3D and DarkBasic actually involve coding, but they aren't really a programming language either, they are a pack with a IDE, a 3D engine and a programming language made for use with the tool (which btw is a variation of the already existing basic language).

Don't get me wrong, MMF is a great tool, you can do amazing games with it, way faster and easier that you would with a actual programming language like C++, the only con is that you're stuck with the limitations of the tool.

 
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14th December, 2008 at 17:09:26 -


Originally Posted by Johnny Look
MMF isn't a programming language, that's a fact.
It doesn't involve any coding either, as most coding is already done all you have to do is give the program instructions (events) to activate one or more actions that were already embedded within MMF and that will be displayed in MMF's engine.
Some tools like Blitz3D and DarkBasic actually involve coding, but they aren't really a programming language either, they are a pack with a IDE, a 3D engine and a programming language made for use with the tool (which btw is a variation of the already existing basic language).

Don't get me wrong, MMF is a great tool, you can do amazing games with it, way faster and easier that you would with a actual programming language like C++, the only con is that you're stuck with the limitations of the tool.



I agree it's not a programming language but I STRONGLY disagree that it's not coding. Scripting is coding and all we are doing is building scripts with a RAD interface (Rapid App Development). If/Then, order of operations, and other basic programming theories all still apply while making a klik game.

 
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14th December, 2008 at 18:27:27 -

"the only con is that you're stuck with the limitations of the tool."

And which game have you made where that limit is reached?


 
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14th December, 2008 at 18:44:58 -

MMF is not a language per se, but it is just as good a tool to make games with as any. People who may diss MMF in favor of "real" game development languages are just insecure and want to look cool. Granted, programming languages can allow for a lot of stuff that MMF alone can't do, and MMF isn't the best tool in most cases for full-scale games for a number of reasons that I don't need to go into. They both have their pros and cons.

Oh, and I agree that it is coding. There's no law that says coding has to be in written words. Cause and event, by definition, fits. It's just a graphical representation rather than a written one.

 

  		
  		

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14th December, 2008 at 19:19:12 -

Multimedia Fusion 2 is a tool designed with the initial idea in mind of getting rid of the process involving writing lines of code. This process was replaced with an almost identical (in terms of functionality) event editor, coupled with the event list editor. The addition of the rest of the tools just bridged the gap between multiple applications for multiple tasks such as image editing, level designing, storyboard editing, so on and so forth.

So to consider Multimedia Fusion 2 any less of a fantastic tool that gets the job done better then I've seen A LOT of program languages out there, is selling the program short on so many heart breaking levels.

Most people who program games using "REAL" programing, either slave over making their own engines, and tools, which take years to develop, or they go out and buy other peoples engines and development tools, which for combined price, is almost 5x as much as MMF2, for half the quality. Really... it makes no sense.

Multimedia Fusion 2 is a tool, and classified as such, makes it no different then any other development tool out there. It's not glitchy, it's not faulty, it's not extremely limited in it's functionality. It's even growing on a month to month basis. The people making these foolish claims about "real" programing, are whining because they can't get MMF2 to do what they want it to do, largely because they sell the software short, rather then figure out that it's their own lack of logic that's giving them issues. In which case, I say... good luck with "real" programing.

I can't wait to see the day when I hear someone say "C++ has a glitch. That's the only reason I can't do this."

 
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14th December, 2008 at 19:32:59 -

i wouldnt call it a language. the only actual coding you'll ever really do unless you write your own shaders for HWA or extensions is writing formulas or expressions into your game.

programming in a real language is a lot more involved and time consuming, yet a lot more flexible. ive spent the last few days writing a multi-client tcp/ip server skeleton in c++ using winsock. almost done and then i'm gonna work on making a udp/ip server.

 
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14th December, 2008 at 19:35:26 -

Well put Brandon. MMF is a fantastic tool that, in my experience, is the best of all non-language tools out there. I looked and looked for other game development tools for years after I got TGF, and then I realized, "O_o What the heck? I love TGF! It's the best! Why am I still looking?" And stopped there. I've tried all sorts of tools, and Clickteam's is by far the best setup, allowing you to make games that are original and have custom looks and engines without being hard to make, and don't feel cookie-cutter like alot of GM and AGS games do. And, MMF is simpler but just as powerful! They have the formula down to a science for the most part.

In the first three quarters of Sim and Game development at college, I'll be using Torque, which isn't entirely a language programming tool! Sure, it uses scripts, but it's very similar to MMF in what it tries to accomplish. I only wish we could use MMF instead, since I already know my way around the program so well.

 

  		
  		

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14th December, 2008 at 19:40:43 -

" I can't wait to see the day when I hear someone say "C++ has a glitch. That's the only reason I can't do this." "

c++ does have glitches, or rather "bugs". but for the most part theres 100 other ways to do the same thing that was giving you problems before.

standard c++ varies in implementation from compiler to compiler and from system to system (unix mac linux windows) so you may do the same thing in a different manner over different platforms.

 
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14th December, 2008 at 20:31:15 -

MMF2 is more like a scripting language than a programming language. That doesn't make it any less awesome though.

 
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14th December, 2008 at 21:39:49 -

Anyone whos taken even the most basic of theories of computing at any university can tell you that MMF2 is just as much a programming language as C++. After all, they're both high level languages compared to Machine Code, aren't they? The only people who say stupid things like "MMF2 isn't programming" are people who don't know anything about programming.

Programming 'language' does not imply in any way shape or form that it will be a texted based language that is parsed by a compiler. MMF works in the exact same structure as any programming language created; a user inputs a list of commands and mathematical statements which is turned by the compiler into machine code which is executed by the computer.




Its not a matter of 'liking MMF' or 'hating MMF', its the damned definition of programming.

 
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14th December, 2008 at 22:01:01 -

It's not a programming language, but that doesn't make us any less superior!

 
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14th December, 2008 at 22:20:46 -

Knudde and OldManClayton: Technically speaking coding and programming means the same, so you can't code if there isn't any programming language directly involved. You can call creating events in mmf whatever you want, just the term "coding" isn't technically correct. But who cares anyway ?

Brandon pretty much summed up everything, except I disagree when he says learning a programming language is pointless.
Some people actually prefer programming to using mmf and making a decently working engine like MMF doesn't take years at all. In MMF you don't have pointers, types etc... which makes it almost impossible for making almost any sort of strategy game, not to mention that MMF is 2D only, that's a huge limitation and there's many free and open source 3D engines out there. And don't forget that MMF2 isn't free while for example you can get codeblocks+ Irrlicht for free.

So in the balance you have a paid 2D game creation tool which is very easy to use, or you can get a free but powerfull 3D engine but you'll have to learn a programming language which can get you a job in the game industry, the dream of most people here I reckon.

Adam: Well I always take MMF's limitations in consideration when starting a game so that's probably why I dont usually stumble on MMF's limitations. But I always wanted to do a FPS or a RTS like Age of empires with MMF but I can't.

Edited by Johnny Look

 
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14th December, 2008 at 22:27:27 -

Learning a language is far from pointless, yes. MMF is great for what it was meant to do, let people without a large team make fun 2D games.

You could argue about the real meaning of coding and programming until you turn blue, but as you said, who cares? We all agree.

 

  		
  		

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14th December, 2008 at 23:21:23 -

I'd put it on par with something like Flash. It's not programming but what you learn here can be transferred elsewhere.
Frankly I don't really want to learn much else and I don't even need to, that's what the production team is for. :3

 
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14th December, 2008 at 23:21:29 -

Uh it fits the exact description of a programming language. Its just a high level programming language, which is easy and fast to use, but is slow and underpowered at runtime due to high overhead. MMF's limitations like doing '2D only, etc' is entirely in your head. The provided library commands are 2D only, but you can program a 3D engine in MMF the exact same way you can program one in C++. The difference is that all MMF based products have such a severely high overhead, especially while looping, that you cannot run any 3d programs efficiently. I could make a 3d engine just like any other in MMF, it would just run at 1 FPS because of all the looping and stuff involved.


MMF's limitations are twofold; low power, and self-depreciating users. People who don't ATTEMPT to go above and beyond the things build into MMF2. Sure, MMF2 only has "Display at X,Y" built in, no 3d renderer. But guess what? Neither does C++. C++ doesn't even have those graphical displays built in.

At its most core, MMF2 is simply a programming language that uses an array-list approach instead of a text-based approach, subdividing code snippets into an event/action array. Its just a different way to structure the same kind of programming that you do in any other language, C++ or Java. Its like how Sign Language is a language just like English or Turkish is. But after that, the limitations are all artificial; too high overhead for loops, limited objects, limited built in functions, too much overhead for processing large numbers of events, too much overhead for everything. Its an extremely inefficient language. A very limited one.

 
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15th December, 2008 at 00:03:35 -


Originally Posted by Pixelthief
Uh it fits the exact description of a programming language. Its just a high level programming language, which is easy and fast to use, but is slow and underpowered at runtime due to high overhead. MMF's limitations like doing '2D only, etc' is entirely in your head. The provided library commands are 2D only, but you can program a 3D engine in MMF the exact same way you can program one in C++. The difference is that all MMF based products have such a severely high overhead, especially while looping, that you cannot run any 3d programs efficiently. I could make a 3d engine just like any other in MMF, it would just run at 1 FPS because of all the looping and stuff involved.


MMF's limitations are twofold; low power, and self-depreciating users. People who don't ATTEMPT to go above and beyond the things build into MMF2. Sure, MMF2 only has "Display at X,Y" built in, no 3d renderer. But guess what? Neither does C++. C++ doesn't even have those graphical displays built in.

At its most core, MMF2 is simply a programming language that uses an array-list approach instead of a text-based approach, subdividing code snippets into an event/action array. Its just a different way to structure the same kind of programming that you do in any other language, C++ or Java. Its like how Sign Language is a language just like English or Turkish is. But after that, the limitations are all artificial; too high overhead for loops, limited objects, limited built in functions, too much overhead for processing large numbers of events, too much overhead for everything. Its an extremely inefficient language. A very limited one.



You didn't get the point of my post but still, in your own logic, 3D in MMF would be useless anyway. Also you can't compare MMF and C++ alone because C++ alone is almost useless, without SDL or any other library to use it with. The difference is MMF doesn't have an extension that does proper 3D yet (and will hardly have in the future) while C++ have countless free and paid 2D and 3D engines. But that's not the point, even if mmf had only a few small limitation, someone would go for another solution that didn't had those limitations.

And about MMF being a programming language or not... I'm not going to discuss that again I explained my point and stand by what I said, discussing this again is pointless.


Edited by Johnny Look

 
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15th December, 2008 at 00:21:00 -

Thats just what i was thinking when i made the topic pixeltheif.

Now something like C++ (or just C) was most likely originally written in assembly. So is that just a fancy tool with a text based interface? (MMF2 was made in C++ i think)

 
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15th December, 2008 at 02:48:58 -

When you call a programming language 'high level', its all relative. Everything builds on top of the previous level. Say I made a programming language IN MMF2, and made it as an .EXE. Then, it would compile to MMF2 code, which compiles to C++ or C, which compiles to assembly, which compiles to machine code, which finally runs your processors microcode. Every language is relatively high level. Theres no cutoff point when a language stops being a language. The text based scripting on most 'normal' languages like C++ or Java is an entirely artificial construct, a high level interpretation, just like the event editor in MMF2. Computers can't read. They run little on/off bits and varied amounts of electricity.

You can argue a language is higher level or lower level, or that C++ is better or worse or whatever. Thats all arguable. But even the most abstract, high level computer languages are still languages.

 
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15th December, 2008 at 03:45:51 -

I'm not going to go back and re-read what I said to confirm that I said it was pointless, but if I did, I'm sorry. That was a sharp mistake. Learning a programing language like C++ is by absolutely no means pointless.

 
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15th December, 2008 at 06:17:09 -

I'd have to agree with a lot of stuff Pixelthief said.

MMF, heck, KNP counts as a programming language in itself simply because it does calculations. HTML isn't a programming language because it doesn't Whatever it is, KNP can do more than Assembly could, so there!

Most of the people who do say to "stop using MMF and learn a real programming language" obviously haven't tried to make a game in C++ and the like. MMF is good. It lets you do big things, in a short amount of time. It's a powerful tool and that's just what the drawback is.

Think of MMF like a harvesting machine. It's good for a single person who wants to do professional work without a lot of time and effort. But the drawback is that it only works for certain things. You could harvest a grain field with one, but not an apple orchard. Assembly is like using bare hands, C++ puts it a step higher than that. Both allow a lot more flexibility, with their own disadvantages.

RPGMaker is easily the most powerful tool out there - for making RPGs. It lets you do a hell lot more in less time, but as you could see, it's even less flexible than MMF.

So, really, it's all about picking the right tools. Just don't be using MMF to make the wrong things and you could do anything you want. The reason I wrote that article was because it's depressing seeing newbies who think that anything is possible with MMF. It's not. Planes can fly, but they can't reach outer space.

 
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15th December, 2008 at 06:43:44 -


Originally Posted by Pixelthief
When you call a programming language 'high level', its all relative. Everything builds on top of the previous level. Say I made a programming language IN MMF2, and made it as an .EXE. Then, it would compile to MMF2 code, which compiles to C++ or C, which compiles to assembly, which compiles to machine code, which finally runs your processors microcode. Every language is relatively high level. Theres no cutoff point when a language stops being a language. The text based scripting on most 'normal' languages like C++ or Java is an entirely artificial construct, a high level interpretation, just like the event editor in MMF2. Computers can't read. They run little on/off bits and varied amounts of electricity.

You can argue a language is higher level or lower level, or that C++ is better or worse or whatever. Thats all arguable. But even the most abstract, high level computer languages are still languages.



So writing "whassup people" in say, ms word and then exporting the page as a html page is programming ? Or when you create a presentation in ms powerpoint ? Sorry but I don't think so. While you are right in most of your post, you are wrong when you compare MMF2 to java or to any other programming language. While in java or c++ you have to follow the programming language of the compiler so that it can interpret your code, in MMF you give instructions in the program so that the output behaves the way you want, like you would when are creating a presentation in ms powerpoint for example, the diference is MMF follows the logic of programming even though it's not actually programming.
And you are yet to show me another example of a programming language that isn't text based.

Brandon: well you didn't say that, but it looked like it was the conclusion of your post.

 
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15th December, 2008 at 06:54:44 -

i consider mmf as much of a computer programming language as i do pseudo-code. it is event driven programming. not a 'full' language, more like slang. events are representative of many components, but nothing specific.

i think you are trying to be too technical here pixeltheif. yes down at its very core it has a compiler that takes code generated by an interpretor for the events you wrote. but if you want to call it a language it would be on a level 10x greater than that of any high level language we have right now. you cant even begin to compare it. not yet.

 
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15th December, 2008 at 07:15:58 -


Originally Posted by Cecil
i consider mmf as much of a computer programming language as i do pseudo-code. it is event driven programming. not a 'full' language, more like slang. events are representative of many components, but nothing specific.

i think you are trying to be too technical here pixeltheif. yes down at its very core it has a compiler that takes code generated by an interpretor for the events you wrote. but if you want to call it a language it would be on a level 10x greater than that of any high level language we have right now. you cant even begin to compare it. not yet.



I don't think it does.
If I understand MMF's way of functioning correctly it works more or less this way:
There's the runtime where every event is pre-coded, and there's mmf's main program where the user activate those events as well as many other parameters. When you create an executable, you're not actually compiling anything, all mmf does is copy and paste the runtime exe, create a file where all the events and parameters are saved, as well as the media (sounds, graphics etc...) then it's encrypted in a single file, which can executed by anyone.

Edited by Johnny Look

 
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15th December, 2008 at 08:12:30 -

as i see from wikipedia you are right. it uses precompiled libraries.

although there are no sources, so im not sure how correct that is. even when using precompiled libraries, when an executable is made it has to be compiled together to make the single application. i think the word "encrytped" was a misuse.

the point is it is not a language, nor is it trying to be. there are tons of programs that do the same or similar things. a 3d modeller like 3ds max, maya, or blender uses a graphical interface to create/export a 3d model, which is usually a text script + resources/textures that a program uses to render the model. yes 3d modelling can be hand scripted in a text file, but we dont call maya or blender a language.

i like this quote from Brazilian Portugese Review on the mmfwiki http://www.mmfwiki.erathean.com/index.php/Multimedia_Fusion_2

"MMF (Multimedia Fusion) is a diverse yet simple tool for creating videogames. As with its predecessors, Fusion has a simple language because it uses an event-grid with images, navigated entirely by the mouse. Although not a 'Programming Language' per se, its logic is very similar, serving as a good introduction to algorithmic logic (the logic of programming)."

even clickteam doesnt call it a language they call it "a very powerful all visual programming environment" as per the amazon manufacturers description http://www.amazon.co.uk/Clickteam-MMF2D-Multimedia-Fusion-Developer/dp/B000J0KWZY

Edited by Cecilectomy

 
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i can't even begin to explain this. As far as computer science, you guys have absolutely no idea what the heck you are talking about. Its a matter of computing theory; turing machines. Programming languages have strict definitions that have been laid out in the past 100 years, its not some vague idea.

MMF you give instructions in the program so that the output behaves the way you want, like you would when are creating a presentation in ms powerpoint for example, the diference is MMF follows the logic of programming even though it's not actually programming.



If all you do is put some pictures in the level editor, then you've done no programming. If you write code that is compiled and executes calculations in the processors that decide the outcomes, thats programming. Powerpoint presentations cannot complete calculations. They can't model Turing Machines. MMF can.


And you are yet to show me another example of a programming language that isn't text based.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_programming_language

Your computer compiles higher level languages down into assembly code, which is roughly textual, but assembly is compiled into machine code. Machine code is not text based, it is just a bunch of bits and instruction tables. A bunch of proverbial 1's and 0's.


I don't think it does.
If I understand MMF's way of functioning correctly it works more or less this way:
There's the runtime where every event is pre-coded, and there's mmf's main program where the user activate those events as well as many other parameters. When you create an executable, you're not actually compiling anything, all mmf does is copy and paste the runtime exe, create a file where all the events and parameters are saved, as well as the media (sounds, graphics etc...) then it's encrypted in a single file, which can executed by anyone.



....what? I'm sorry man, but every single part of that post is wrong. Events aren't "hardcoded". MMF computes instructions given to it at runtime. An event saying

+Global Value A == 0
=Set "Enemy" Flag 0 off

would be equivalent to a C++ line stating

If (global_A < 0){
Enemy[1].flag_0 = off
}

MMF does not copy and paste the runtime .exe or anything like that. The events are compiled into code which is read at runtime by your computer, which decides which actions to make happen and when. This is exactly the same way C++ or Java or any other modern programming language runs a program. You ARE very much compiling something when you make an executable. MMF does not just select from predetermined action trees when executing. It calculates.

I mean hell, if you want to learn a little about programming languages I know some good articles I could recommend, some wikipedia pages, and whatnot. A few good books. Its an interesting area of study.



Like Muz put it, MMF2 is just as much a programming language as anything else, but its a very flawed one. One that traded power for speed, efficiency for ease of use. You can create things in MMF2 in an hour that would have taken a week in C++, but you can create things in C++ that take 10 seconds to run that would take your computer 10 weeks in MMF2. In the name of creating an easy to use environment, clickteam made many decisions that pulled KNP away from being a serious programming language; Predefined and allocated memory for active objects, HUGE overhead, poorly implemented looping, etc.

You could take the same architecture of MMF and create something much more professional and easier to use, recreating it from the ground up. The fundamentals of the programming are exactly the same. The limitations are just artificial.

 
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"MMF (Multimedia Fusion) is a diverse yet simple tool for creating videogames. As with its predecessors, Fusion has a simple language because it uses an event-grid with images, navigated entirely by the mouse. Although not a 'Programming Language' per se, its logic is very similar, serving as a good introduction to algorithmic logic (the logic of programming)."

even clickteam doesnt call it a language they call it "a very powerful all visual programming environment" as per the amazon manufacturers description http://www.amazon.co.uk/Clickteam-MMF2D-Multimedia-Fusion-Developer/dp/B000J0KWZY



Because Brazilian Portugese Review obviously knows more about computing than Turing or Babbage or that crew. You can quote me as saying "George W Bush is a closet homosexual who enjoys buttering other mens' crumpets", but it doesn't make it true. I'm not sure if you grasp this:

Processors don't read english.

Every single representation of a computing language as english or text is just a high level interpretation like any visual environment like MMF. Computers read 1's and 0's. They read strings of bits. To them, it doesn't matter if the compiled 1's and 0's came from a text compiler or a visual compiler.


And honestly man, it doesn't "use precompiled libraries". Thats like comparing a jungle gym tic tac toe board to a pentium 2. If you wanted to model every situation that could occur from a simple MMF programmed project, even with memory limitations considered the result would be many times larger than the number of atoms in the universe. MMF does not work by selecting a predetermined outcome based on input. It calculates the output based on the input. IE computing.

Take LEGOs for example. If you construct a little house out of legos, that is not programming. If you create a little lego lever that launches a penny when you flip it, that is not programming. That is a singular on/off switch. But if you buy Lego Mindstorms and construct a robot that is programmed to react to inputs and sensor detections with chains of events, that is programming. It is abstract, high level, stupid programming. But thats programming language. And you can very well build a turing-machine complete computer out of lego's:
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15th December, 2008 at 09:50:48 -

Why do American's call it Legos? Since when did it have an s on the end?

 
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Plural of Lego.

 
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Because Brazilian Portugese Review obviously knows more about computing than Turing or Babbage or that crew. You can quote me as saying "George W Bush is a closet homosexual who enjoys buttering other mens' crumpets", but it doesn't make it true. I'm not sure if you grasp this:



im not saying its true. im saying i like it. no one is doubting mmf's ability as a programming tool or even saying "its not programming", the descrimination is about whether or not it is a programming "language" which in my opinion is a term not suited for what it is.


a very powerful all visual programming environment



that term i am completely accepting of.


Processors don't read english.


you are right, and im not disputing this.


And honestly man, it doesn't "use precompiled libraries". Thats like comparing a jungle gym tic tac toe board to a pentium 2. If you wanted to model every situation that could occur from a simple MMF programmed project, even with memory limitations considered the result would be many times larger than the number of atoms in the universe. MMF does not work by selecting a predetermined outcome based on input. It calculates the output based on the input. IE computing.


as i said. it was wikipedia and i doubt its reliability as there are no cited sources.


Every single representation of a computing language as english or text is just a high level interpretation like any visual environment like MMF. Computers read 1's and 0's. They read strings of bits. To them, it doesn't matter if the compiled 1's and 0's came from a text compiler or a visual compiler.


i like this part as even you yourself refer to it as an environment. i edited it out but i made a remark that mmf is more like a shell on a language. i can go to a resturaunt and check off which food i want. do i get to make the food myself? no. the chef makes it for me. ie mmf.

 
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15th December, 2008 at 09:56:12 -

Visual environment and programming language aren't mutually exclusive.

 
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15th December, 2008 at 10:00:02 -

that wasnt my point -.-

 
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15th December, 2008 at 10:00:31 -


Originally Posted by Pixelthief
Plural of Lego.



Uh.. never called it Legos in my family. Always Lego, like fish and sheep.

 
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15th December, 2008 at 11:44:45 -

Sounds like Pixelthief has this topic sussed and I'll just go along and agree with it.

And I used to call them "fishes", but not Legos or sheeps. And Sticklebricks.

 
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15th December, 2008 at 12:11:09 -

1 lego (each brick is a lego)
2 legos

 
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lego my eggo! >

 
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15th December, 2008 at 13:04:40 -

http://stason.org/TULARC/games/mindstorms-lego/7-Plural-of-LEGO.html should resolve everything, even that MMF2 is a kind of programming language.

 
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15th December, 2008 at 13:40:18 -

Fighting over the definition of a programming language.
Fighting over the plural of Lego.

You guys are such geeks

 
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15th December, 2008 at 13:46:50 -

Hah! I was right! It's LEGO not Legos! Silly "American English"

 
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15th December, 2008 at 13:54:25 -

Well... LEGO Bricks. But close enough!

 
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I'm wrong. I will still always say legos when referring to multiple bricks.

Edited by Ricky

 
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I just want to brick the jerk in the face when they say "Click isn't a real programming language. Your games are worthless." etc... The main reason being, because they're usually a spastic that hasn't made more than a random number generator in C++ or whatever, and it took them two months to do. I'll be copying and pasting Pixelthief's reasoning from today, though. It's pretty good. 8D

 
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I don't see what the huge deal is. It might take somebody just as long to learn C++ and make something good with it as it would for somebody to make a good game with MMF2.

I know Visual Basic 6 pretty well and have made lots of games with it in the past. That being said I haven't made a single one with it since I got MMF1.5 (and later MMF2). There are just too many awesome things MMF lets you do that would be super difficult with VB6. The only thing offhand I know VB6 has over MMF is its ability to have object arrays, and even then I've only ever really needed them for MMF once.

 
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Well, I didn't read all that, but I did catch the little Lego thing. Technically, it's LEGO bricks, but I've heard LEGO themselves call them "legos" in magazines and ads.

Funny thing-- I thought about bringing up programming legos as well...

 

  		
  		

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15th December, 2008 at 18:34:06 -


Originally Posted by Del Duio
The only thing offhand I know VB6 has over MMF is its ability to have object arrays, and even then I've only ever really needed them for MMF once.



Well most limitations in MMF can be worked around, so the *real* limitation of MMF is the giant overhead for runtime; each 'event' in the event editor might take up 10000x as much processing power as a line of text in C++, and fast loops run absurdly inefficiently. So as long as you stay simple, you can create things in MMF2 just as well as any other language, but more complicated projects run sloooooooooow.

 
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15th December, 2008 at 18:58:00 -

I just make my MMF games like I did with my VB6 games: The best way I know how, regardless of whether it's the "right way" or not. Game making's supposed to be fun and half of my fun comes from stuff most normal people would never think is like debugging and code / event line sorting and testing, coming up with a good weapon vs. armor damage forumla and blah blah blah. When you figure out how to do something you've seen in your mind's eye for awhile it's a great feeling, regardless if the path there was accidental. I'm sure there are much more efficient ways of getting the job done but as long as it all looks and works like what you've imagined it doesn't matter too much. My 9th grade computer teacher would certainly disagree but who's laughing now? HA HA HA HA HA HA! (Extra "HA"s for intended creepy feeling effect.)

MMF takes so much time out of the equation of game-making for me now which is another great reason why I use it. I don't have all the free time like I used to for doing this type of thing and I can't make 4-5 finished games a year anymore as an old dude.

 
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15th December, 2008 at 19:12:27 -

I just have to comment on the Lego. Im from Sweden, Lego is from Denmark, Denmark is a neighbouring country to Sweden, so my word is LAW.
In Sweden we call them;

One "Legokloss" (or more commonly Legobit), which translates into one "Lego brick".
Several "Legos" as you say is in fact "several Lego bricks", "flera Legobitar".

In danish you would say "Lego klods" (or perhaps "Lego klodse"), in plural you would say several "Lego klodser".

To summarise.
You are all wrong.
You can't say "a Lego" or "several Legos" OR "several Lego".



 
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15th December, 2008 at 19:14:10 -

ditto the old dude bit. Programming in MMF is almost most fun simply because all the standard libraries and engines DON'T exist, and every time I want to program something new I have to do something nobodies done before and learn as I go. Its kind of like puzzle solving, whereas spamming out C++ code makes me feel like a robot. So much of MMF2's lore is just mysticism. Plus that bit where it cuts out 90% of the time. That 'rocks me socks'

 
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15th December, 2008 at 19:16:10 -

Ruined my edit!

And yes, you should in fact write it out as LEGO not Lego. But who does that anyway?

 
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In America Lego has become a household term more than a company name. Kinda like kleenex and band-aid. We don't say, "Hand me the band-aid adhesive bandages." Some people even call cheapy off-brands like Mega Bloks (And yes, they are cheapy compared to Legos. ) "legos". And we call all sorts of soda, "coke". (My Grandma calls all video games, "nintendos." )

 

  		
  		

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I never understood why they called it Band-Aid instead of bandage. Guess I just don't let companies command how I speak.

 
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Yeah Dr. James, i was going to say it's just an example of a product dominating a market so much the name replaces the conventional name.

Also how did you guys go so off topic? lolz. Thats ok though.

 
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I do it with a lot of things. I didn't say I'm playing video games when I was little, I said I'm playing Nintendo.

 
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ditto the old dude bit. Programming in MMF is almost most fun simply because all the standard libraries and engines DON'T exist, and every time I want to program something new I have to do something nobodies done before and learn as I go. Its kind of like puzzle solving, whereas spamming out C++ code makes me feel like a robot. So much of MMF2's lore is just mysticism. Plus that bit where it cuts out 90% of the time. That 'rocks me socks'



i would consider widgets and snippets, mmf's engines and all the extensions, its libraries. when you cant do something in mmf you find the appropriate extension, or code one yourself if it doesn't exist. the same goes for c++ with libraries and SDKs, you add the appropriate library headers and .lib files to a project that allow you to use certain classes, structs, functions, devices. why you would EVER feel like a robot using c++ but not mmf is beyond me. whenever i take a code snippet from a forum or web page i usually modify and improve it so much that it becomes MY code. i've never taken anything and just spammed it into my code. not only does it usually not work but then i DO feel like a robot.

as for the 90% less development time, while you can probably make a game in a couple hours with mmf, most of them are crap (because they were made in a couple hours), and the ones that are truly worth playing were and are taking months even YEARS to create.

youre a great programmer, what id consider one of the best here at tdc. but doing something in c++ that takes me a couple weeks gives me a much greater sense of accomplishment. mmf feels like a cheat.

mmf gives non-programmers a way let out their ideas with ease. i hear this "it cuts down the development time 90%" and i cant help but think, a noob with mmf either takes weeks months or years to create a semi decent to great game, or makes a crap game in a couple hours. a pro can make a decent game in days. a good game in weeks. a great game in a month or two. and an awesome game in around a year or more. there are always the genious exceptions but it's true for the most part. its all relative. i made my latest game # puzzle in mmf in less than a day. and its decent. but i couldve taken the same or a lttle bit more time to make it in c++, it wouldve been smaller, faster, and have much more content. it all depends on your knowledge. if you KNOW mmf but are only ok at c++ then yes itll take forever to make a game with c++ that would take you 90% less time in mmf. but for those that are experienced in both, no there is not much of a development time difference. as the complexity of the game goes up so does the difference in development time. but the difference is relative to your skill at either medium.

almost all of my stuff on tdc is incomplete but 2 of them are c++ and BASIC. the BASIC game is similar to my #puzzle game but took me all but an hour to code. and my #puzzle game while graphically superior with a bit more content took me almost 24 hours. both are practically the same game at their core, a tile puzzle game. and my c++ isometric engine (which im currently about to recode and optimize for a game) took me about a week to get it to where it is, yet my attempt to convert it to mmf took a month in which i had to scrap the idea because it was simply too slow to handle massive maps without using mmf iso grid object and functionality. (although if i use some of your methods with the overlay object and looping which allowed for fast raycasting, i could probably get it running decently).

Edited by Cecilectomy

 
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