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Pixelthief

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14th December, 2008 at 21:39:49 -

Anyone whos taken even the most basic of theories of computing at any university can tell you that MMF2 is just as much a programming language as C++. After all, they're both high level languages compared to Machine Code, aren't they? The only people who say stupid things like "MMF2 isn't programming" are people who don't know anything about programming.

Programming 'language' does not imply in any way shape or form that it will be a texted based language that is parsed by a compiler. MMF works in the exact same structure as any programming language created; a user inputs a list of commands and mathematical statements which is turned by the compiler into machine code which is executed by the computer.




Its not a matter of 'liking MMF' or 'hating MMF', its the damned definition of programming.

 
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14th December, 2008 at 22:01:01 -

It's not a programming language, but that doesn't make us any less superior!

 
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14th December, 2008 at 22:20:46 -

Knudde and OldManClayton: Technically speaking coding and programming means the same, so you can't code if there isn't any programming language directly involved. You can call creating events in mmf whatever you want, just the term "coding" isn't technically correct. But who cares anyway ?

Brandon pretty much summed up everything, except I disagree when he says learning a programming language is pointless.
Some people actually prefer programming to using mmf and making a decently working engine like MMF doesn't take years at all. In MMF you don't have pointers, types etc... which makes it almost impossible for making almost any sort of strategy game, not to mention that MMF is 2D only, that's a huge limitation and there's many free and open source 3D engines out there. And don't forget that MMF2 isn't free while for example you can get codeblocks+ Irrlicht for free.

So in the balance you have a paid 2D game creation tool which is very easy to use, or you can get a free but powerfull 3D engine but you'll have to learn a programming language which can get you a job in the game industry, the dream of most people here I reckon.

Adam: Well I always take MMF's limitations in consideration when starting a game so that's probably why I dont usually stumble on MMF's limitations. But I always wanted to do a FPS or a RTS like Age of empires with MMF but I can't.

Edited by Johnny Look

 
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14th December, 2008 at 22:27:27 -

Learning a language is far from pointless, yes. MMF is great for what it was meant to do, let people without a large team make fun 2D games.

You could argue about the real meaning of coding and programming until you turn blue, but as you said, who cares? We all agree.

 

  		
  		

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14th December, 2008 at 23:21:23 -

I'd put it on par with something like Flash. It's not programming but what you learn here can be transferred elsewhere.
Frankly I don't really want to learn much else and I don't even need to, that's what the production team is for. :3

 
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Pixelthief

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14th December, 2008 at 23:21:29 -

Uh it fits the exact description of a programming language. Its just a high level programming language, which is easy and fast to use, but is slow and underpowered at runtime due to high overhead. MMF's limitations like doing '2D only, etc' is entirely in your head. The provided library commands are 2D only, but you can program a 3D engine in MMF the exact same way you can program one in C++. The difference is that all MMF based products have such a severely high overhead, especially while looping, that you cannot run any 3d programs efficiently. I could make a 3d engine just like any other in MMF, it would just run at 1 FPS because of all the looping and stuff involved.


MMF's limitations are twofold; low power, and self-depreciating users. People who don't ATTEMPT to go above and beyond the things build into MMF2. Sure, MMF2 only has "Display at X,Y" built in, no 3d renderer. But guess what? Neither does C++. C++ doesn't even have those graphical displays built in.

At its most core, MMF2 is simply a programming language that uses an array-list approach instead of a text-based approach, subdividing code snippets into an event/action array. Its just a different way to structure the same kind of programming that you do in any other language, C++ or Java. Its like how Sign Language is a language just like English or Turkish is. But after that, the limitations are all artificial; too high overhead for loops, limited objects, limited built in functions, too much overhead for processing large numbers of events, too much overhead for everything. Its an extremely inefficient language. A very limited one.

 
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15th December, 2008 at 00:03:35 -


Originally Posted by Pixelthief
Uh it fits the exact description of a programming language. Its just a high level programming language, which is easy and fast to use, but is slow and underpowered at runtime due to high overhead. MMF's limitations like doing '2D only, etc' is entirely in your head. The provided library commands are 2D only, but you can program a 3D engine in MMF the exact same way you can program one in C++. The difference is that all MMF based products have such a severely high overhead, especially while looping, that you cannot run any 3d programs efficiently. I could make a 3d engine just like any other in MMF, it would just run at 1 FPS because of all the looping and stuff involved.


MMF's limitations are twofold; low power, and self-depreciating users. People who don't ATTEMPT to go above and beyond the things build into MMF2. Sure, MMF2 only has "Display at X,Y" built in, no 3d renderer. But guess what? Neither does C++. C++ doesn't even have those graphical displays built in.

At its most core, MMF2 is simply a programming language that uses an array-list approach instead of a text-based approach, subdividing code snippets into an event/action array. Its just a different way to structure the same kind of programming that you do in any other language, C++ or Java. Its like how Sign Language is a language just like English or Turkish is. But after that, the limitations are all artificial; too high overhead for loops, limited objects, limited built in functions, too much overhead for processing large numbers of events, too much overhead for everything. Its an extremely inefficient language. A very limited one.



You didn't get the point of my post but still, in your own logic, 3D in MMF would be useless anyway. Also you can't compare MMF and C++ alone because C++ alone is almost useless, without SDL or any other library to use it with. The difference is MMF doesn't have an extension that does proper 3D yet (and will hardly have in the future) while C++ have countless free and paid 2D and 3D engines. But that's not the point, even if mmf had only a few small limitation, someone would go for another solution that didn't had those limitations.

And about MMF being a programming language or not... I'm not going to discuss that again I explained my point and stand by what I said, discussing this again is pointless.


Edited by Johnny Look

 
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15th December, 2008 at 00:21:00 -

Thats just what i was thinking when i made the topic pixeltheif.

Now something like C++ (or just C) was most likely originally written in assembly. So is that just a fancy tool with a text based interface? (MMF2 was made in C++ i think)

 
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Pixelthief

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15th December, 2008 at 02:48:58 -

When you call a programming language 'high level', its all relative. Everything builds on top of the previous level. Say I made a programming language IN MMF2, and made it as an .EXE. Then, it would compile to MMF2 code, which compiles to C++ or C, which compiles to assembly, which compiles to machine code, which finally runs your processors microcode. Every language is relatively high level. Theres no cutoff point when a language stops being a language. The text based scripting on most 'normal' languages like C++ or Java is an entirely artificial construct, a high level interpretation, just like the event editor in MMF2. Computers can't read. They run little on/off bits and varied amounts of electricity.

You can argue a language is higher level or lower level, or that C++ is better or worse or whatever. Thats all arguable. But even the most abstract, high level computer languages are still languages.

 
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15th December, 2008 at 03:45:51 -

I'm not going to go back and re-read what I said to confirm that I said it was pointless, but if I did, I'm sorry. That was a sharp mistake. Learning a programing language like C++ is by absolutely no means pointless.

 
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15th December, 2008 at 06:17:09 -

I'd have to agree with a lot of stuff Pixelthief said.

MMF, heck, KNP counts as a programming language in itself simply because it does calculations. HTML isn't a programming language because it doesn't Whatever it is, KNP can do more than Assembly could, so there!

Most of the people who do say to "stop using MMF and learn a real programming language" obviously haven't tried to make a game in C++ and the like. MMF is good. It lets you do big things, in a short amount of time. It's a powerful tool and that's just what the drawback is.

Think of MMF like a harvesting machine. It's good for a single person who wants to do professional work without a lot of time and effort. But the drawback is that it only works for certain things. You could harvest a grain field with one, but not an apple orchard. Assembly is like using bare hands, C++ puts it a step higher than that. Both allow a lot more flexibility, with their own disadvantages.

RPGMaker is easily the most powerful tool out there - for making RPGs. It lets you do a hell lot more in less time, but as you could see, it's even less flexible than MMF.

So, really, it's all about picking the right tools. Just don't be using MMF to make the wrong things and you could do anything you want. The reason I wrote that article was because it's depressing seeing newbies who think that anything is possible with MMF. It's not. Planes can fly, but they can't reach outer space.

 
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15th December, 2008 at 06:43:44 -


Originally Posted by Pixelthief
When you call a programming language 'high level', its all relative. Everything builds on top of the previous level. Say I made a programming language IN MMF2, and made it as an .EXE. Then, it would compile to MMF2 code, which compiles to C++ or C, which compiles to assembly, which compiles to machine code, which finally runs your processors microcode. Every language is relatively high level. Theres no cutoff point when a language stops being a language. The text based scripting on most 'normal' languages like C++ or Java is an entirely artificial construct, a high level interpretation, just like the event editor in MMF2. Computers can't read. They run little on/off bits and varied amounts of electricity.

You can argue a language is higher level or lower level, or that C++ is better or worse or whatever. Thats all arguable. But even the most abstract, high level computer languages are still languages.



So writing "whassup people" in say, ms word and then exporting the page as a html page is programming ? Or when you create a presentation in ms powerpoint ? Sorry but I don't think so. While you are right in most of your post, you are wrong when you compare MMF2 to java or to any other programming language. While in java or c++ you have to follow the programming language of the compiler so that it can interpret your code, in MMF you give instructions in the program so that the output behaves the way you want, like you would when are creating a presentation in ms powerpoint for example, the diference is MMF follows the logic of programming even though it's not actually programming.
And you are yet to show me another example of a programming language that isn't text based.

Brandon: well you didn't say that, but it looked like it was the conclusion of your post.

 
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15th December, 2008 at 06:54:44 -

i consider mmf as much of a computer programming language as i do pseudo-code. it is event driven programming. not a 'full' language, more like slang. events are representative of many components, but nothing specific.

i think you are trying to be too technical here pixeltheif. yes down at its very core it has a compiler that takes code generated by an interpretor for the events you wrote. but if you want to call it a language it would be on a level 10x greater than that of any high level language we have right now. you cant even begin to compare it. not yet.

 
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15th December, 2008 at 07:15:58 -


Originally Posted by Cecil
i consider mmf as much of a computer programming language as i do pseudo-code. it is event driven programming. not a 'full' language, more like slang. events are representative of many components, but nothing specific.

i think you are trying to be too technical here pixeltheif. yes down at its very core it has a compiler that takes code generated by an interpretor for the events you wrote. but if you want to call it a language it would be on a level 10x greater than that of any high level language we have right now. you cant even begin to compare it. not yet.



I don't think it does.
If I understand MMF's way of functioning correctly it works more or less this way:
There's the runtime where every event is pre-coded, and there's mmf's main program where the user activate those events as well as many other parameters. When you create an executable, you're not actually compiling anything, all mmf does is copy and paste the runtime exe, create a file where all the events and parameters are saved, as well as the media (sounds, graphics etc...) then it's encrypted in a single file, which can executed by anyone.

Edited by Johnny Look

 
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15th December, 2008 at 08:12:30 -

as i see from wikipedia you are right. it uses precompiled libraries.

although there are no sources, so im not sure how correct that is. even when using precompiled libraries, when an executable is made it has to be compiled together to make the single application. i think the word "encrytped" was a misuse.

the point is it is not a language, nor is it trying to be. there are tons of programs that do the same or similar things. a 3d modeller like 3ds max, maya, or blender uses a graphical interface to create/export a 3d model, which is usually a text script + resources/textures that a program uses to render the model. yes 3d modelling can be hand scripted in a text file, but we dont call maya or blender a language.

i like this quote from Brazilian Portugese Review on the mmfwiki http://www.mmfwiki.erathean.com/index.php/Multimedia_Fusion_2

"MMF (Multimedia Fusion) is a diverse yet simple tool for creating videogames. As with its predecessors, Fusion has a simple language because it uses an event-grid with images, navigated entirely by the mouse. Although not a 'Programming Language' per se, its logic is very similar, serving as a good introduction to algorithmic logic (the logic of programming)."

even clickteam doesnt call it a language they call it "a very powerful all visual programming environment" as per the amazon manufacturers description http://www.amazon.co.uk/Clickteam-MMF2D-Multimedia-Fusion-Developer/dp/B000J0KWZY

Edited by Cecilectomy

 
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