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AS Filipowski



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28th May, 2008 at 16:04:04 -

I used to make games in click, but by using Flash it opened up a massive world full of possibilities. The interface in MMF2 is a real pain, and theres too many problems with the actual program itself for it to be of any use.

Macromedia Flash is very simple, especially when it comes to drawing new material and using those as character or objects. And of course, you're 99.9% confident that someone else can play it.

Any downsides to Flash? Any advantages to Click Products? I'd like to know what you guys think.

Again, sorry for being away. I wonder if any of my old chums will post.

 
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28th May, 2008 at 16:57:38 -

I spent a few years learning Flash and I hate the thing. I dunno, theres something about how the graphics are rendered. It doesn't seem pixel perfect, it seems quite clumsy. Something just didn't smell right with Flash.

 
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28th May, 2008 at 17:46:55 -

I thought the same, doesn't feel solid at all.

But I'm biased towards Click products

 
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29th May, 2008 at 08:43:49 -

Actionscript itself isn't a bad programming language, but I just find Flash's interface to be needlessly ass-backwards. For example, having to move things across the stage rather than move a camera across the stage is an omission that immediately turned me off to it. I also don't care for how much work it takes to manage nested animations compared to MMF, or how you have to jump through fire to make sound work right.

 
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29th May, 2008 at 09:34:11 -

Not even to mention how much better MMF's object selection is. We had to make a game in Flash for school, it was painful to do - but then it was never made for game creation.

 
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29th May, 2008 at 10:02:10 -

I don't like the thought of coding so I stay away from Flash because of Action Script, but I gotta say that I love the interface in MMF2. I used TGF for years and hated the thought of learning where everything was in MMF2 but I found that it wasn't scary at all and it's much more efficient than TGF was. I didn't understand the frames(?) in Flash at all. Made it look like a real challenge to make simple things. Never used it properly though so I can't really say.

 
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29th May, 2008 at 19:21:45 -

Flash games are always wimpy and pathetic. It isn't ever pixel perfect, as was said, and the programming interface is not quite so... I dunno. The art style in flash games is better for some stuff, but I think as a game development platform it stinks pretty hard. Even on slower computers click games run ok, versus jumpy flash, and the way click products tie everything together smoothly seems to lend itsself more to my liking. Plus, I've always been a fan of .exe's and downloading games. .swf's just don't quite cut it.

 

  		
  		

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29th May, 2008 at 20:43:43 -

Lol, I guess it depends on your style. I like some Flash games, but not most. Same goes for klik games. I think MMF2 is good for just about anything I try to do. It offers me a great deal of control; it's just that it doesn't have enough controls or isn't as easy to animate as Flash.

 
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LIJI

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30th May, 2008 at 09:17:21 -

Flash games suck because Flash is for CARTOONS AND SIMPLE WEB APPLICATIONS not games.
People somewhy started using it for games so Adobe/Macromedia started "supporting" it with more game "features"
It's like compare a game made with PowerPoint with one made with MMF2. The MMF2 game will obviously be better than the PP one not matter how suckish it is, because PowerPoint is for presentations not games, although it is possible to make simple games with it.
Even if someone manages to make a good Flash game, it would have been much easier to make it with a software that was made for that propose, like MMF2, C++ with Graphical Libraries etc, and the result will probably be better by Graphics (Raster (non-vector) graphics look blurry and sometimes JPG-ish on Flash) and resource usage (Flash's rendering engine is very, VERY slow and can not make use of HWA).

I'm not saying that Flash sucks. Personally I use Flash and it's quite good for the usages it was originally meant for - creating cartoons and editing short movies.

 
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30th May, 2008 at 10:46:44 -


Originally Posted by LIJI [My cookie pwnz your cake]
Flash games suck because Flash is for CARTOONS AND SIMPLE WEB APPLICATIONS not games.



One of my tutors friends had this thought too. So he went out and made some kind of Age of Empires like game using Flash. He gave us all a CD of the game (500mb!) but I can't find mine Just saying it's possible to make big games. Just seems to me that people don't spend years working on Flash games like big mofo click games.

 
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30th May, 2008 at 11:03:47 -

I think it's a question of abilities and talent, rather than just stating that it's strictly for Cartoons and web apps. It's like saying MMF is strictly for games and applications, when it can also actually be used to make pixel art/experimental "videos" etc. Some people can manipulate flash very well indeed, and make some great games with it.

 
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30th May, 2008 at 11:10:12 -


Originally Posted by -Adam-
I think it's a question of abilities and talent, rather than just stating that it's strictly for Cartoons and web apps. It's like saying MMF is strictly for games and applications, when it can also actually be used to make pixel art/experimental "videos" etc. Some people can manipulate flash very well indeed, and make some great games with it.


Exactly.
You can make "pixel art/experimental 'videos'" in MMF2, however it would be faster, easier, and probably better, if you used a program that was meant for that instead.
In the same way you can make good Flash games, but it would be faster, easier, and probably better if you used a program that was meant for that instead.
That Age of Empires game could have been done faster and better if that friend of yours used the right program to create it, for example.

 
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31st May, 2008 at 03:54:58 -

I think a few of you are missing the point. For the guy who said that in Flash games you have to move the stage around, not the camera... That's the way the games industry works. It's a complete illusion that moving the camera is the right way. Notice how it always lags when you move the camera in TGF/MMF2? That's because its moving THE ENTIRE WORLD. Which is what every good programming language does! Heck I think you could even create your own camera function in flash the same way.

And for those who says Flash isnt meant for games, I mention the following;
Bowmaster Prelude
Defend Your Castle (Now a WiiWare game)
RuneScape

And of course the millions of other games that are one the net!
For some examples you can check mine out here; http://alexfili.deviantart.com/

 
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31st May, 2008 at 04:01:47 -

But you see most of them Flash games you mention are little games. I haven't seen a large epic Flash game (barring my lectures friends), I haven't seen an ED of the Flash world. They're mostly just concepts that don't get fleshed out.

 
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31st May, 2008 at 04:12:07 -


And for those who says Flash isnt meant for games, I mention the following;
Bowmaster Prelude
Defend Your Castle (Now a WiiWare game)
RuneScape



You still don't get the point.
I shall quote myself:


Even if someone manages to make a good Flash game, it would have been much easier to make it with a software that was made for that propose, like MMF2, C++ with Graphical Libraries etc, and the result will probably be better by Graphics and resource usage.



Those games you've mentioned could have be done much faster and be of a much better quality if they were done with the right tool, tools that was meant for making games, and I'm not talking strictly about MMF2.
No matter how do you look at it, the average MMF games still beats the average Flash game.

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31st May, 2008 at 04:20:34 -

LIJI: the key flaw in your argument is that you are expecting people to read

 
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31st May, 2008 at 04:25:16 -

And that he's generally usually wrong, lol.

 
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31st May, 2008 at 08:09:06 -

I wouldn't say that Liji. I'd say that the best click games are better than the best Flash games.

 
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31st May, 2008 at 09:01:12 -

While I agree that click games are IMO the better of the two by a few universe-widths, it doesn't really matter, does it?

 

  		
  		

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31st May, 2008 at 10:04:17 -

I agree with James in that almost all (just in case there's an exception) flash games are basically mini-games. They aren't full on experiences like say, Eternal Daughter or Tormishire.

"Bowmaster Prelude
Defend Your Castle (Now a WiiWare game)
RuneScape "

The first two are mini-games (and if it's on WiiWare, it isn't flash anymore) and RuneScape is programmed in Java.

Flash is by no means impossible to work with - and apparently Flash player 10 will support HWA rendering but if you want to make a game using software for making games will be easier usually. Flash has this whole half-assed system that let's you make games but if you really want to do anything you have to write your own methods... Having seen a small platformer through in it I can say that the only thing that makes flash better than just coding in C++ is that you can arrange objects visually like MMF.

And the upside to MMF scrolling wise is that while using the same method, it lets you use co-ordinates that make sense not just ones that fall within the window.

EDIT: Sorry I missed something, why are you even asking us if you're gonna defend flash? You seem to want to use it so why not go ahead and just do that...

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31st May, 2008 at 10:09:03 -

Doe's it really matter whick is "better"? It's like comparing a hammer to a wrench, you can't say that one tool is better because thay are made for different things.

 
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31st May, 2008 at 10:30:13 -

That's what I said.

 

  		
  		

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31st May, 2008 at 10:38:21 -


Originally Posted by Dr. James
But you see most of them Flash games you mention are little games. I haven't seen a large epic Flash game (barring my lectures friends), I haven't seen an ED of the Flash world. They're mostly just concepts that don't get fleshed out.



J-Girl fight FTW.

 
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31st May, 2008 at 17:16:22 -

Alien Hominid and Defend Your Castle are two flash games that have actually resulted in a company making console games from them.

Can you name any click games that got published? I don't mean a demo CD... a full game that costs more then £10.

Yes, making certain kinds of games in Click is easier, but with ease of use comes with downsides like repetition of code and complete reliance on plug-ins for extra functionality...

Click products are good stepping stones for people who want to learn about C++ and how if statements work, without getting bogged down in code.

But you reach a certain point where you just get sick and tired of the restrictiveness of Click. For me that happened as soon as I finished my first few years at university. (Studying Computer Games Technology).

Good luck to all game-makers out there. Never give up. Always try to think outside of the box and play a variety of game genres.

 
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31st May, 2008 at 17:41:48 -


Originally Posted by AS Filipowski
Alien Hominid and Defend Your Castle are two flash games that have actually resulted in a company making console games from them.


Alien Hominid is a gameplay clone of Metal Slug. Why on earth it gets this level of publicity I don't know. It's not even original and both games were fleshed out into larger games in whatever language they're in now.


Can you name any click games that got published? I don't mean a demo CD... a full game that costs more then £10.


Noitu Love 2, various Gamesare, Addictive 247 games. I'm talking with 2 very large studio/publisher combos at the moment about remaking my game to consoles. There are other paid click games too and several in the making that I know of.


Yes, making certain kinds of games in Click is easier, but with ease of use comes with downsides like repetition of code and complete reliance on plug-ins for extra functionality...


Complete reliance on plug-ins? No you kinda broke your argument when you said "for extra functionality". Meaning it's extra and not fully necessary.


But you reach a certain point where you just get sick and tired of the restrictiveness of Click. For me that happened as soon as I finished my first few years at university. (Studying Computer Games Technology).


So go onto something better, something that isn't Flash or Gamemaker. No point in moving sideways if you're doing a course that likely persuades you to do better.

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31st May, 2008 at 17:56:31 -

HAHA pwned. Glad you answered that, I was too frustrated to come up with a good retort.

 

  		
  		

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31st May, 2008 at 17:57:36 -

Flash interface is terrible, custom made windows that docks left to right.
Actionscript3.0 is alright but seems a bit unfinished.
Object handling is quite odd - Unless you use AS to create all objects and forget about that frame thing.
I find that Flash has more bugs also crashes more (Like when I have exams, but as a maniac I save every minute)
Pixelart is doable import pngs

http://beagle.hihm.no/105865/spill/game.html <- Did this game in flash for an exam (couldnt have pixelart.. everything needed to be drawn in falsh ) Also a bit rushed 4 days to make it in and I figured that it would be cool if I made an level editor...

I do prefer MMF over Flash any day.

 
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31st May, 2008 at 18:15:25 -

ive talked about this one many many times before because most people i know tell me how "cool" flash games are and they arent even aware of click games. i honestly prefer click games for a simple reason: they FEEL like games. they are REAL games. flash is just crap you play in your browser to waste your time at work. click games are FULL games- they are big. i cant really think of any big flash game but alien hominid which wont run in full screen either. no flash game really runs in full screen. i think flash isnt even able to do full screen and i mean REAL full screen. well with some code you can force it to be but it just wont be the same and i dont think it will fit to your windows res. flash has a horrible runtime and is a memory killer so real full screen stuff would pretty much kill any pc. flash's runtime sucks in general and there is so much stuff you cant do. the advantage of flash: works on pretty much every OS and they ARE browser games. who wants to download the vitalize plug in? its gay anyways and a lot of people are chicken shit when its about downloading exe files so flash is something you click on- you check it out and you X it out. while click is a real game you will download and you will take your time and play those games. the fact alone you downloaded it gives it more value. flash is just fast internet browsing you give a crap about.

edit: oh programming wise i think mmf is awesome. ive seen so many browser games people made in flash and it took them a long while while those games are stuff anybody of us could have done on one weekend. mmf is just way faster and easier in many cases. overall - i dont want to insult anybody here- but i think mmf is something any moron can make easy and simple stuff with. you dont have to be a programmer while if you want to pull of something easy in flash and you dont have much experience yet it will be fucking complicated like hell and take ages to do.

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31st May, 2008 at 19:28:35 -

Go click products. Is there a Clickteam song? Now, I'm not saying I don't like flash, if I could afford it, I'd buy it in an instant to make cartoons... but it's crap as far as games go. Just how it is.

 

  		
  		

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31st May, 2008 at 23:44:03 -

100% with James again here, if you want to move on go to a real language not some ass-backwards program about as useful for making games in as a frog's stomach. Honestly? Any of the examples you give us could have been made in 100 other languages - Flash doesn't make the game the creator does.

Also, my point still remains that why argue for Flash if you want our opinions? This is a Click based site right now so why on earth would we favour flash? This is a silly thread since you're not accepting our thoughts, rather you're just rebutting them with your own opinion.

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31st May, 2008 at 23:56:34 -


Originally Posted by AS Filipowski

Can you name any click games that got published? I don't mean a demo CD... a full game that costs more then £10.


No, because Flash games are minigames and NEED to be remade by large companies if they want to be successful. Click games are already complete and therefore cannot be leapt upon by companies to make clones of. The reason these games become so famous through these remakes is because Flash DOESN'T allow for them to be made any good in the first place.

 
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1st June, 2008 at 03:45:40 -

I'm sorry but the "all flash creations are minigames" statements are totally incorrect. Do you honestly think that no one has done a 50 hour RPG in Flash? I know I've done a couple of RPGs, maybe not of that length, but that doesn't mean it's not possible.

"i honestly prefer click games for a simple reason: they FEEL like games. they are REAL games."

I'm sorry but thats just prejudice. There's tons of Flash games with multiple keys, save files, online scoreboards, online play...

"flash is just crap you play in your browser to waste your time at work."

Um, that's the games industry in general. I'm sure most click games are as much of a waste of time as Flash games or any other console game for that matter.

"no flash game really runs in full screen."

Thank god for that. Full Screen Mode is a plague on humanity. For starters it means you can't use MSN messenger at the same time. Seriously, Full Screen Mode is just a concession for people with crappy computers that can't do more then 2 things at a time.

"you dont have to be a programmer while if you want to pull of something easy in flash and you dont have much experience yet it will be fucking complicated like hell and take ages to do"

I agree. At first, Macromedia Flash can seem a bit difficult to grasp at first. But like any program language, once you spend some time with it you can do a lot more.
Start simple, and use the classic adventure books style where you click buttons to "go to part 1/ go to part 3"... then move on to simple engines such as a basic platformer, RPG etc... then move on to more advanced techniques like line drawing and save files...

I can understand your bias with click games, but you have to face facts. Macromedia Flash is popular for a reason, not just for "minigames". Trust me, for every big click game, there's a big flash game somewhere... you just have to look for them.


 
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1st June, 2008 at 03:47:18 -

By the way, I wouldn't argue that most Flash games are "minigames", most Click games are sidescrolling platform games! Wow, how original!!!

Yes, I'm aware I'm a bit biased... but I do respect click products and what they represent. They are a key building block for any avid game makers anywhere. Much better then "Game Maker".

I can't think of any better tool then click tools to learn how to make a game.

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1st June, 2008 at 05:12:45 -


Originally Posted by AS Filipowski

"no flash game really runs in full screen."

Thank god for that. Full Screen Mode is a plague on humanity. For starters it means you can't use MSN messenger at the same time. Seriously, Full Screen Mode is just a concession for people with crappy computers that can't do more then 2 things at a time.



I found this to stand out the most.

Why would you want to play a game and use MSN Messenger at the same time? When I play games I don't want to chat to people. I don't have my laptop wired up to my TV with PiP mode so I can play Mario Galaxy and hold a conversation online. I play games for the immersive experience they can produce, because of the interactive nature I find them much more compelling than being entertained by linear media. Using other apps reduce that experience, if you get a buzz from films then it'll be equal to having some gobby twunt sat behind talking throughout the film.
Sat back with my 360 controller playing games on a nice, large monitor with nice, large speakers fullscreen is pretty much the only way I bother playing most games. 2D or 3D.

And thanks for calling my various computers (including an 8 core workstation system) "crappy".

But I studied Flash for years. I made navigation systems for a gallery, cartoons, games, presentations and websites using Flash. It's great for a lot of things but games isn't one of them, it's more a byproduct.

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1st June, 2008 at 05:55:35 -

This doesn't have anything to do with anything, but at least cactus knows how to create good games with Game Maker.

 
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1st June, 2008 at 09:32:59 -

"Thank god for that. Full Screen Mode is a plague on humanity"

oh YES of course it is thats why all REAL games (stuff you buy in stores) run in FULL SCREEN. its a FULL Game that wants your full attention and you give it your full attention so thats why its full screen just like a movie. if you chat and listen to music and play a game at the same time the game sucks because you dont pay much attention to it and its nothing but a lousy time waster and THATS why click games (and other FULL games) run full screen.

ADOBE Flash is popular because: 1) Clickteam doesnt have ANY marketing while Adobe forces their products down onto anybody's throat
2) Flash makes dynamic websites while MMF cant do that (well it can but vitalize sucks)
3) Flash is able to keep the file size DOWN a lot because of the fact its vector and because you use instances so you can create dynamic web content that loads very easily
4) The majority of games made in MMF are like SNES/NES/Mega Drive...whatever and hardly peopel care about that anymore but indy game makers and retro lovers while Flash is still all new and shiny
5) BIGGEST selling point: ANYBODY can run Flash. Doesn't matter what OS you have and it's all browser based so people dont even have to download crap.

 
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LIJI

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1st June, 2008 at 09:47:39 -

Fullscreen is good as long:
-It's not forced and not started without a warning.
-Your game resolution is ABOVE 640*480.

 
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2nd June, 2008 at 02:30:11 -

OH YES LET'S JUST IGNORE MY POINTS TWICE SHALL WE?

Why are you even asking us? You obviously love flash so much so why don't you just accept that we don't like it?

I don't care if one or two people have made decent games in flash, good on them. It doesn't make it a good tool for making games! The tool doesn't make the product, the producer does. If I made a epic 50 hour RPG in flash, I would think to myself "Why the hell did I use flash?" - it's not that it's impossible but that it's silly.

Also, a game deserves your full attention really - an option is common courtesy of course but alt+tab to MSN if it's that much of an issue. Also last I checks Flash Player 9 supports fullscreen - at least be informed about your argument.

"By the way, I wouldn't argue that most Flash games are "minigames", most Click games are sidescrolling platform games! Wow, how original!!!"

Do you even think before posting - seriously? A good platformer requires a lot more work than a mini-game and it's a load more fun. The reason we make platformers is because they're good not because it's all MMF is capable of.

""flash is just crap you play in your browser to waste your time at work."

Um, that's the games industry in general. I'm sure most click games are as much of a waste of time as Flash games or any other console game for that matter. "

That's sad, I don't play games to "waste my time" I play them because I like games - I like their immersion and I like that they let people express themselves.

I'll say it once more because so far you seem to have missed it every time - IF YOU LIKE FLASH, I DON'T CARE. DON'T FORCE YOUR OPINION ON US WHEN YOU ASK US FOR OURS.

 
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2nd June, 2008 at 02:34:00 -


Originally Posted by »Ben«
OH YES LET'S JUST IGNORE MY POINTS TWICE SHALL WE?

Why are you even asking us? You obviously love flash so much so why don't you just accept that we don't like it?
...

I'll say it once more because so far you seem to have missed it every time - IF YOU LIKE FLASH, I DON'T CARE. DON'T FORCE YOUR OPINION ON US WHEN YOU ASK US FOR OURS.



LOL

also: AGREE

 
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2nd June, 2008 at 03:00:37 -

good for you. but i dont care. c++ ftw.

 
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2nd June, 2008 at 03:02:16 -

Wow Ben, that was pretty hardcore for you

But really. Can someone link me to a 4-6 hour long game made in Flash with their own art/soundtrack and support for USB controllers?

 
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2nd June, 2008 at 09:41:16 -

Well, I'm sorry, but you're just a big goober that needs to face facts. Flash is not as... awesome (for lack of a better word) as Click products. And that's not bias. I have honestly not enjoyed any game in flash longer than thirty seconds, except maybe Line Rider, and most flash games could easily be done in MMF. Your arguments just don't work. Flash is for cartoons and ads. Not games. End of discussion. Why are you even here? Oh, and just because a game lasts a long time doesn't mean it's good. You keep saying there are plenty of "epic" flash games, but who gives three ounces of poo? I mean, come on.

 

  		
  		

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2nd June, 2008 at 12:31:43 -

The worst thing about full-screen in click games is that not only is it mandatory for quite a few games, but it does a horrible kind of stretch thing that makes the graphics look awful.

The whole thing about working with a 16x16 tile is to make it look nice from afar... not to scale it up so that it takes up half of the entire screen.

"I don't care if one or two people have made decent games in flash, good on them. It doesn't make it a good tool for making games!"
Except, that you actually learn programming skills, most of the code and algorithms are similar to C++ and any other top programming language.

"A good platformer requires a lot more work than a mini-game and it's a load more fun."
Not that much work. Arguably the platform engine is the hardest thing to do, and that's one of the easiest gametypes to be honest.

I was here to listen to your thoughts, and wonder why you still made games using click products. I never came to start a war, I was just stating my opinion.

Flash games are better suited to vector graphics and Click games are somewhat geared towards sprites, but both tools are quite useful for programmers.

 
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2nd June, 2008 at 12:49:07 -

"and wonder why you still made games using click products" Well, we've said why. You apparently didn't listen to our thoughts-- We put them out, you just rebuffed them. There really was no point. But, welcome back anyway! Stick around and try some click stuff again! Anybody besides me thinking the word, "lock"?

 

  		
  		

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2nd June, 2008 at 12:58:13 -


Originally Posted by AS Filipowski
The worst thing about full-screen in click games is that not only is it mandatory for quite a few games, but it does a horrible kind of stretch thing that makes the graphics look awful.

The whole thing about working with a 16x16 tile is to make it look nice from afar... not to scale it up so that it takes up half of the entire screen.




Full Screen click games look really nice on my computer. My GPU doesn't understand 320x240 so it upscales it to 640x480 and filters the image (making everything look really nice and smooth).

 
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2nd June, 2008 at 14:14:18 -

My 24" monitor doesn't support low resolutions either but when sat back in a mofo comfy chair with a mofo comfy controller then (aspect ratio pending) it looks beautiful. Up close it has all that stretching and stuff.

 
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2nd June, 2008 at 14:35:58 -

I understand the point about strecthed graphics. My old thinkpad 600 would display fullscreen games horribly, while my desktop would display them beautifully even with the same resolution. It likely has to do with physical screen size and proportions, or the hardware's interpreter. However, many flash games look crappy fullscreen as well, and I've only run into two Click games that were fullscreen and looked bad. Most of those games were made back before larger screen resolutions existed.

 

  		
  		

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2nd June, 2008 at 18:12:27 -

I like the interface with TGF and MMF 2, very simple tools to make games and easy to pick up with no back round knowledge needed in programing which is a major , For me though Flash is the ultimate drawing tool and i actually do all my drawings and animations in Flash and convert them into TGF/MMF 2!

I wouldn't be making games with out both of these products there like my right and left arm!

 
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3rd June, 2008 at 15:55:47 -

Glad to hear that! I'm sorry to say that I won't be going back to TGF or MMF2 ever again. I'm happy with Flash so I'll stick with that.

While I'm here I'll plug some of my latest games;

http://alexfili.deviantart.com/art/Find-a-Zombie-Keep-a-Zombie-83090606
http://alexfili.deviantart.com/art/Darkness-Within-87059875
http://alexfili.deviantart.com/art/High-Voltage-Origins-77268566

FAZKAZ is a RPG, Darkness Within is a tower-defense simulator and HVrigins is a turn-based RPG. I've made some other games, feel free to make comments.

 
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3rd June, 2008 at 18:12:40 -

My comment is, why come when I merely *ask* about posting demo updates (Or games) in the forums, I get yelled at... but nobody's touched yours, and they aren't even TGF! (I didn't ask about posting demos in the forum, I asked, in the forum, about posting new demos on my projects page.) Anyway, I'm sad to hear that part about not returning to click products, but... to each his own! Since non-click games are allowed here, I see no reason not to stay and contribute!

 

  		
  		

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3rd June, 2008 at 21:19:32 -

Flash is awful as a programme, it's interface is messy, the draw tools are shite - but I can see the draw that it has. There's not many apps that can produce a full game that anyone can play online or offline without having to resort to full-on programming languages.

 
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4th June, 2008 at 08:10:22 -

*Eye Twitch of Instanity*

If flash teaches you programming skills... Why not learn them properly by programming? Just because you learn coding practices doesn't make it a good tool either .

"Not that much work. Arguably the platform engine is the hardest thing to do, and that's one of the easiest gametypes to be honest. "

Make a game like Tormishire, CaveStory or Eternal Daughter in flash and I'll believe it's easy I've coded a platform engine in flash - it is most certainly not the hardest thing to do. What is the hardest thing is the badly implemented we-kind-started-and-didn't-make-it-work-right instance control. Anyway - I'm sick of arguing with people who only respond to points that they can argue against instead of actually taking on board my opinion which they asked for. The only good thing I see in flash is cross platform installations and a very large user base.

Anyway, fullscreen 320x240 does fill my 24" screen and it looks lovely - I can't even tell games are stretched most of the time.

Also, I went a bit mad there didn't I! It's just annoys me when someone asks for an opinion - gets one - starts a debate - ignores my points and then proceeds to tell me I'm wrong about the one thing he can find a hole in.

 
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4th June, 2008 at 13:02:41 -

Sorry bout that. I have a habit of doing that.
I do appreciate your comments.

 
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4th June, 2008 at 15:51:51 -

You all got me wrong! >_>
I hate tiny full screen games because they mess up my windows...

 
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4th June, 2008 at 16:09:26 -

It may not be as widespread as flash, but Vitalize! Provides a way to play games online. Granted, it's not cross-platform yet, but snobbish Mac users aren't likely to play your little click games. (Not all Mac users are snobs, but the apple store's atmosphere is horrendous! It's like nerds who think they're cool, yet they're still nerds. Plus, they smell funny. )

 

  		
  		

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4th June, 2008 at 17:35:28 -


Originally Posted by AS Filipowski
I was here to listen to your thoughts, and wonder why you still made games using click products. I never came to start a war, I was just stating my opinion.

Flash games are better suited to vector graphics and Click games are somewhat geared towards sprites, but both tools are quite useful for programmers.



I think this thread made it quite obvious that you didn't come here to simply ask; you can here to ask, then attack anyone who disagreed with you.

 
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5th June, 2008 at 01:13:39 -


Originally Posted by AS Filipowski
Sorry bout that. I have a habit of doing that.
I do appreciate your comments.



That's better .


Originally Posted by LIJI
You all got me wrong! >_>
I hate tiny full screen games because they mess up my windows...



Ah yes, that does annoy me - when all my windows become 320x240... And MSN windows fill the screen... Gamemaker games in fullscreen don't cause that though :S.

 
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5th June, 2008 at 09:44:44 -

Why is this topic still alive again? Nothing personal, AS Filipowski, but if you seriously think Flash is better than Click for game making, methinks there is something wrong with your head. Not really, but I am having trouble understanding why.

Edit: If the MMF2 interface is similar to TGF2's interface (I know the icons are smaller, but yea...) than I agree that the interface can be a pain. I still use TGF for this reason. When was the last time you made a click game? It may be better now if you give it time... I know that I thought Flash's interface was a pain until I gave it some.

Image Edited by the Author.

 

  		
  		

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5th June, 2008 at 09:56:29 -


Originally Posted by JonWoG
"And of course, you're 99.9% confident that someone else can play it." - This makes no sense!?



It doesn't. A lot of people have Flash. A lot don't. I don't have Flash installed on my XP partition since I don't want Flash adverts and I don't play Flash games.

 
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5th June, 2008 at 10:07:11 -

I could make a game with RPG maker and be guaranteed lots of people to play it. Thats not reason enough to use a different product to the one I'm used to.

I would only learn flash to make videos, which i'm sure is what most people use it for, and likely for a very good reason as many people have been saying.

 
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5th June, 2008 at 16:11:34 -


Originally Posted by OldManClayton
Why is this topic still alive again? Nothing personal, AS Filipowski, but if you seriously think Flash is better than Click for game making, methinks there is something wrong with your head. Not really, but I am having trouble understanding why.

Edit: If the MMF2 interface is similar to TGF2's interface (I know the icons are smaller, but yea...) than I agree that the interface can be a pain. I still use TGF for this reason. When was the last time you made a click game? It may be better now if you give it time... I know that I thought Flash's interface was a pain until I gave it some.

Image Edited by the Author.



Last time I remember was about a year and a half ago for the Xmas compo.

 
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5th June, 2008 at 16:18:43 -

You should seriously consider trying to make a click game again. Now, you must realize that I don't think Flash is useless, I've been trying for years to get a legitimate copy cheap, it's just that in my opinion, Click stuff is better for games. I'd really love flash for making OldManClayton cartoons I'm sure.

 

  		
  		

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7th June, 2008 at 03:36:59 -

I'm sorry, but Click just doesn't fulfill my game creating needs. I spent ages working on Bryan and Ivan but I just couldn't get it to work right.
To be honest, with Click I spend half of the time trying to fight the default engine that gets forced down your throat.
There's just way too much effort involved in pixel hunting, default naming, default movement settings, and more.

Flash is good because I can create everything from scratch and I don't have to stick to some really outdated animation names.
Another good thing about Flash is that I can have the character move every limb seperately, so that he looks a lot more smoothly animated.
And of course, it's compatible with a lot of computers, which makes it very easy for me to upload to DeviantART, get instant comments and make changes.

I am not attacking anyone, I'm just stating my opinion. I have never asked anyone to do anything other then enjoy their game creator and go nuts.
No matter what game creator you use, as long as you're comfortable with it, that's fine. Sorry, I can get a bit overly critical sometimes, and forget to see the positive sides. I admit, Click is quite a bit better then a lot of other game creators.

 
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7th June, 2008 at 04:28:47 -


Originally Posted by AS Filipowski

To be honest, with Click I spend half of the time trying to fight the default engine that gets forced down your throat.



No wonder you don't like Click. You're supposed to make your own engines in the event editor. It's not "forced down your throat" Most of the games on here barely ever use them.

 
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7th June, 2008 at 04:50:19 -

There are no default engines shoved down your throat. Go onto movement>static and then build your own. It's very easy.

 
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9th June, 2008 at 11:52:35 -

They should just scrap all this default movement stuff and just let the player make their own engine. What's good about Macromedia Flash is that it's a blank slate. Nothing is done for you, so you learn exactly how to do everything. Some see it as a curse, I see it as an opportunity to improve my coding skills.

I'm sure theres times in a 'Click' Gamemaker where something happens and either the game crashes or something unexpected happens to you, and you have absolutely no idea why. In Macromedia Flash you can trace out the code and make sure nothing does go wrong. And there's debugging features etc.

Click products are good. I have never said they were bad. They are a lot better then most game makers out there I tell ya!

 
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9th June, 2008 at 12:50:12 -


Originally Posted by AS Filipowski
They should just scrap all this default movement stuff and just let the player make their own engine. What's good about Macromedia Flash is that it's a blank slate. Nothing is done for you, so you learn exactly how to do everything. Some see it as a curse, I see it as an opportunity to improve my coding skills.



You're not reading are you? In fact if you read around abit, even in the articles section of this website, you'd see articles on custom platform engines such as: http://www.create-games.com/article.asp?id=843 .



 
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9th June, 2008 at 13:54:44 -

The option to use or not use built in movement is better than no option at all. However the option is only there in TGF2 and MMF2 for compatibility with older click products.

 
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9th June, 2008 at 15:45:01 -


Originally Posted by AS Filipowski
They should just scrap all this default movement stuff and just let the player make their own engine. What's good about Macromedia Flash is that it's a blank slate. Nothing is done for you, so you learn exactly how to do everything. Some see it as a curse, I see it as an opportunity to improve my coding skills.



If you read my previous post, you wouldn't have said that. You can easily make your own engines in the event editor.
please READ before replying again with nonsense

Image Edited by the Author.

 
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10th June, 2008 at 03:41:50 -


Originally Posted by AS Filipowski
They should just scrap all this default movement stuff and just let the player make their own engine. What's good about Macromedia Flash is that it's a blank slate. Nothing is done for you, so you learn exactly how to do everything. Some see it as a curse, I see it as an opportunity to improve my coding skills.

I'm sure theres times in a 'Click' Gamemaker where something happens and either the game crashes or something unexpected happens to you, and you have absolutely no idea why. In Macromedia Flash you can trace out the code and make sure nothing does go wrong. And there's debugging features etc.

Click products are good. I have never said they were bad. They are a lot better then most game makers out there I tell ya!



MMF2 does in-fact have a debugger - and flash doesn't have anything decent just a syntax checker really... Crashes in MMF2 exe's are almost always caused by silly things like infinite loops etc. so it's not that hard to find out .

As I keep saying you should just learn to code in a real language that the industries will actually accept - telling a company "I know actionscriptlolz" is hardly proof that you're a good coder. You mentioned education at some point in this thread ("Studying Computer Games Technology") and I'd be appalled if they favoured flash over a real coding environment - if you intend to go anywhere near the real industry they would laugh at you and tell you to learn a real language if you applied.

Flash works, MMF2 works, just about everything works - it doesn't make any one thing the best choice because you CAN do stuff in it.

 
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10th June, 2008 at 14:38:13 -

In university we practiced on assembly code, C++ and Javascript. Macromedia Flash was a side-project that I begun doing in my spare time.

 
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