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Hagar

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16th August, 2010 at 15:02:48 -

Hi All,

I keep thinking of trying the Apple way of computing so to speak when I purchase my next PC (probably in a year), but cost wise I can not seem to justify it. In my job I do a lot of computationally intensive things (My home PC is a core 2 Quad and my work PC has an i7).

The reason I ask is that four friends of mine have switched and now swear by them (to MacBook, MacBook Pro and Imac's [yuk]). They seem awfully overpriced to me.

The equivalent of my current PC is the base line Mac Pro, which goes for just short of 2000 pounds - without a monitor... Now bear in mind I built this PC last year for just under 600 pounds (Minus monitor and I got my OS free through my Uni's academic alliance ). So if I do go for a Mac it would be the 8 Core or 12 core (no point buying similar specced machines), and these go for 2,800 and almost a whopping 4k.

Other thing that bugs me is software for it (I use a lot of free windows and linux software for my job) and Parallels/Bootcamp is 65 pounds - not sure if virtual box runs well on a Mac with hardware interfaces, and running full speed is pretty much needed so I would really need boot camp or something similar (any freebie software like this?)

Other things (like office) also seem overpriced for the Mac, I have used a Mac a few times and I do like them - I just can not bring myself to cough up that much , perhaps some non fanboy Mac users can give their views.


 
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16th August, 2010 at 15:37:38 -

A question is in order:

Are you interested in Macs because of what you've seen of Mac usage and because OSX has qualities you can't find in Windows or because your friends have them?

And:

What do your friends use their Macs for?

 

  		
  		

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16th August, 2010 at 16:10:37 -

Thanks for the reply . One friend is a musician (uses Logic), other two guys are theorists (therefore just write academic papers) and my final Mac friend is a hardware dev guy like myself . I was quite happy doing a silly project with Xcode with him for the ST Micro Arm embedded processors (only tool chain he uses).

Plus I did like OSX. Not usually a follower of fashionable / in vogue stuff but in my somewhat brief experiences of using a Mac (an afternoon with Logic and a day with Xcode) was refreshing shall we say. Used to do some (bad music) myself using my keyboard, midi lead and evolution midi (ancient package).

Unfortunately I do use a lot of toolchains (Philips LPC (an ARM 7), Microchip MCUs, Lattice Semi, Xilinx ... the list goes on) unlike my friend so I think its best if I stick to windows & Ubuntu . Also still need ye olde parallel port for one of my JTAG leads...

Still would not mind a Mac in the future with Logic, but they still seem overtly expensive for my liking

 
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16th August, 2010 at 16:33:39 -

Boot camp is free, so if you have a copy of Windows, there's no extra money to run both.

That refreshingness may not last when you get into it (Once you start to find the stubborn and useless design decisions thrown in there as in all OSes ) but you can't really predict taste one way or another. I thought my bro's Mac was cool for about one day.

If you like OSX, all you have to justify is the price. The only one who can do that is you with a list of things you can only do in OSX.

 

  		
  		

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16th August, 2010 at 17:05:10 -

"I keep thinking of trying the Apple way of computing so to speak when I purchase my next PC (probably in a year), but cost wise I can not seem to justify it. In my job I do a lot of computationally intensive things (My home PC is a core 2 Quad and my work PC has an i7). "

seems like you already have computationlly intensive things covered. upgrade you mobo and cpu to an i5 or i7. i5 has up to 4 cores, i7 has up to 6. a 6core i7 will cost you a grand though. but honestly you already have a core 2 quad which is already pretty beefy.

"The reason I ask is that four friends of mine have switched and now swear by them (to MacBook, MacBook Pro and Imac's [yuk]). They seem awfully overpriced to me."

its called being fanboys. macs are overpriced, mac osx is overhyped, and the software is both overpriced and overhyped. it does what they need it to do and it looks nice. there isnt any other reason. they also might argue the lack of viruses as a plus, to which my response will always be "the only reason there is no viruses for macs is because nobody uses them".

"
The equivalent of my current PC is the base line Mac Pro, which goes for just short of 2000 pounds - without a monitor... Now bear in mind I built this PC last year for just under 600 pounds (Minus monitor and I got my OS free through my Uni's academic alliance ). So if I do go for a Mac it would be the 8 Core or 12 core (no point buying similar specced machines), and these go for 2,800 and almost a whopping 4k."

see my reply to the previous.

"Other thing that bugs me is software for it (I use a lot of free windows and linux software for my job) and Parallels/Bootcamp is 65 pounds - not sure if virtual box runs well on a Mac with hardware interfaces, and running full speed is pretty much needed so I would really need boot camp or something similar (any freebie software like this?)"

virtual box and vmware are both free iirc, and should run perfectly fine. you also have wine (free), cedega/cider (which isnt free but is less then paralles i beleive), and crossover (also not free), which are all for running windows apps/games in mac/linux without needing a virtual os installed.

"Other things (like office) also seem overpriced for the Mac, I have used a Mac a few times and I do like them - I just can not bring myself to cough up that much , perhaps some non fanboy Mac users can give their views."

openoffice.org -_-


all i can say is, there is NEVER a valid reason to use a mac, unless you absolutely NEED a mac to do what you need to do. i.e. proprietary mac software development like iphone development.

if you want to dabble in the mac universe i would simply suggest the mac mini. its a decent computer for a mere 600$.

Edited by Cecilectomy

 
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16th August, 2010 at 17:08:58 -

I guess it was just a change that made it feel nice. I loved ubuntu until I hit some problems (like the GUI Editor in Xilinx ISE not working and the documentation for the latest version being non existant), MLT making 1080p editing choppy although windows editing packages run fine so its not a performance problem (and playback in Ubuntu is also fine), Flash being totally random to its functionality on 64 bit, the ATi Drivers being somewhat iffy and it caused random pauses with Compiz (and black and white windows whilst dragging them) even though the non proprietry drivers worked fine . I guess the devil is in the details.

Might buy a Mac in the future but not the immediate future . To be honest I believe there is nothing I can do on a Mac that I can not do on my PC, my Mac friends would go barmy if I said this (Well Mr Jobbs robbed PC users of Logic, but Cakewalk is pretty good too)



 
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16th August, 2010 at 17:15:32 -

If you're loaded, then just buy what you want - you don't need to justify your decision.

If you're viewing it as an investment, then you need to figure out how much it will actually increase your productivity - eg. What new jobs will you be able to take on and how much time (time=money) will you be able to save, by using a new Mac instead of a PC?

If it's just a fun new toy, then you need to consider whether you could get more enjoyment by spending your money some other way. Personally, if I had 3000, I'd be spending all next-winter skiing in the Canadian Rockies...



 
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16th August, 2010 at 17:20:02 -


Originally Posted by ..::hagar::..
To be honest I believe there is nothing I can do on a Mac that I can not do on my PC



Skip it for now then. The novelty alone isn't worth the extra money if you're deliberating over the price point.

 

  		
  		

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16th August, 2010 at 17:33:05 -

@ Robot Cecil: I was tempted at the mac mini some time ago (as a server basically to put in my cupboard) but that job got done with a dual core atom based system I built in a small form factor (two hard drive bays & two optical bays) case with a couple of 1 TB hdd's running in raid 1 (reliability is my concern). Hardly takes any power and I can not tell its only a atom based system with it running Ubuntu server for things I do. Again a LOT cheaper than the Mac mini plus server (929 pounds!).

Oh and I can feel the difference between my PC and my works machine running some simulations and doing place and route (for FPGAs - can take a very long time. Imagine solving the travelling salesman routine for say half the world, but you can also place each city,road etc in a certain number of fixed places!). Current CPU is a Q9400, its still ace for games but I can tell the difference in my work

@Sketchy and OMC: It was more of a pipe dream that on my next PC purchase I could try the MAC route at the same time as being able to do my work. At best my liklihood of being willing to buy one is about 5 to 8%. Just wanted to see if any mac fans could push that up .

I have placed spending on hold at the moment anyway (holiday with my lady is a looming), though I shall not be doing any skiing - I do not fancy dislocating my knee again which would probably happen if I tried skiing

 
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16th August, 2010 at 17:43:57 -

It sounds like you're a custom hardware dude. Apple and that don't mix well.

If you'd like, I could recruit my uncle to bolster your confidence in Macs.

A little off-track, but what did you use for the case of your Atom server? I've been looking into having a server at home for backup and media sharing purposes.

 

  		
  		

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16th August, 2010 at 18:00:49 -

None of my custom hardware currently runs in PC's anyway. I did work on PCIe 1x cards some time ago, but thankfully I dont do that anymore! (It was a nightmare!). My allegiance to the PC has be re affirmed lol

My case is a Venus 669 - It was the only mini ITX case I could find in UK that had two of each bay types.

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Mine is in black, the two fans in the back are a little bit pointless to be honest, and I do not think you could fit two IDE hdd's in, the bottom HDD is perpendicular to the top one - just in case your going to use some spare IDE HDD's you have knocking around (what I originally planned to do but I put them in my old PC instead).


 
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16th August, 2010 at 18:32:16 -

I got one two years ago to use in my studio. It went from fancy multitrack recorder to soundfont/jampack player to dust gatherer. Windows does everything I need now.

 
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16th August, 2010 at 20:07:05 -

I have found absolutely no justification for getting a Mac, what so ever. And I'm a graphic designer, I still prefer Windows over Mac. The hardware is over priced, the available software is limited, and operating system babies you.
My only justification is, if you cannot for the life of you, keep a PC alive and functioning well, then you might find Mac more suitable, but for people who can honestly say they swear by the brand.. ask them what kind of MP3 player or phone they have. If uts an iPod or iPhone, they are just Apple fans, not intelligent buyers.

 
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16th August, 2010 at 21:36:25 -

Well I would class myself as fairly competent in keeping a PC running, my last PC's installation of XP lasted just over 5 years before a format - and that was becuase I changed the HDD).

Never really had any problems with Windows 3.11 (showing my age), XP, 98 or 7. Vista was useless as a hardware dev on launch and I did have problems on ME, not sure why as it was just a facelifted 98. 95 was so so.

My phone is a Nokia 5800, not a bad MP3 player but its a shame about the phone - and I detest the touch screen...

Ouch @ Hayo :S - kind of like my Wii and Xbox 360 now - they just gather dust...

 
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17th August, 2010 at 04:14:09 -

microsoft is better than mac

discuss.

 
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17th August, 2010 at 05:29:44 -


Originally Posted by Dogzer
microsoft is better than mac

discuss.


This is not a matter of discussing Microsoft at all. If it was, I would have brought in why I prefer Zune over iPod. This is a matter of choosing which operating system is better for them, and fact is.. Macs are for people who can't be bothered with or are too incompetent to keep a PC in good working condition. They sure as hell pay for it in the end though, which means that the justification is very difficult to make for anyone with half a brain or more.
I'd like to roughly compare it to buying a nanny to keep your house clean. Spend a ton of money just to do something you can do yourself for free, especially if you never let it get bad to begin with.

 
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17th August, 2010 at 09:24:04 -

You can get a PC with better specs than a Mac for the same price. With a Mac, you're paying mainly for the build quality and look which is important to many people.

Having said that, I am still going to buy a Mac Mini (my first Apple computer) tomorrow because I need it to make iPhone games

 
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17th August, 2010 at 09:51:06 -

I have never seen anyone with a Zune in the UK. Its either an Ipod over here, your phone or a Creative Zen.

 
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17th August, 2010 at 09:52:38 -

@ Andy - even the Mac Mini seemed overprices to me :/. The size of it was quite neat though

(Would hate to take it apart mind!)

 
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17th August, 2010 at 11:18:36 -

it may still be slightly overpriced for the specs you are getting, but its the cheapest mac you can get. and is still pretty decent.

 
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17th August, 2010 at 13:23:32 -


Originally Posted by SiLVERFIRE
Macs are for people who can't be bothered with or are too incompetent to keep a PC in good working condition. They sure as hell pay for it in the end though, which means that the justification is very difficult to make for anyone with half a brain or more.



Macs have many advantages and disadvantages over general Windows PCs - different people prefer different platforms. It's nothing to do with whether somebody only has "half a brain" or not.

I use a Windows PC and have done my whole life, but I do have experience using Macs during education and work so I will put my opinions here.

Hardware
The hardware is generally top quality - it's expensive but you generally get what you pay for and it's guaranteed to last a long time. Example - I bought a crappy Compaq laptop for about 400 which lasted about 2 years before it started slowing down and having problems (was pretty much down to the cheap graphics card, memory and hard drive). It wasn't worth the money replacing the components so I just bought a new laptop. I've generally had this problem with laptops from Compaq, HP etc.

I have friends who have had Macbooks which last around 4-5 years without a single problem what-so-ever. Some do have problems, but generally you can tell that the quality of hardware is much better than that you get with your general PC companies such as Compaq. I guess it's down to what company you're buying from - I've never tried Dell laptops for example, so wouldn't be able to say they're laptops aren't good quality. But from minor experience I'd say Apple laptops are some of the best. But they're also the most expensive.

Software/Applications
Obviously, with OSX you're missing out on many applications developed for Windows. A lot of common applications like Steam, VLC media player etc are available on OSX though. If I was to switch to OSX then I wouldn't miss any Windows applications personally (now that Team Fortress 2 is available on Mac anyway). I can't really think of anything I'd miss. Then you have all the development software for the iPhone, which obviously isn't available on Windows - that's if you're into developing software anyway.

Operating System
OSX is unix based and is a very solid operating system. It's easy to use, it's quick to use and it's pretty. The user interface design is generally top notch and everything is where you expect it to be. I find there are also fewer limitations than Windows system, if you know what you're doing. You can pretty much do whatever you want through the terminal window, whereas with Windows you have to mess with the registry and all that crap.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My suggestion would be to find somebody with a Mac and get them to let you play with it for a bit. The only real difference between Windows is the user interface and the fact it is a unix based system (which also have many advantages/disadvantages over Windows, but I won't go into that - just google Linux vs Windows or Unix vs Windows). I also would only suggest buying a Macbook rather than the full-fledged Mac desktop - the hardware is nearly as good and is a little cheaper if I recall. Plus the hardware in the Macbooks can pretty much do anything anyway.

Also note that Macs can run OSX and Windows on the same machine. Though you can build a "hackintosh" which lets you install OSX on normal PC hardware. Maybe you could look into that if you want to give OSX a try.

I'm still sticking with a Windows desktop but when I get enough money I'm scrapping my laptop and getting a Macbook - mainly because I know it'll last longer and I'll be able to do everything I want to on it. Plus I'm looking at going into iPhone and Android development (of which I can do both on a Macbook).

Also, I am not an Apple fanboy. Like I said, both platforms have their advantages/disadvantages - you really need to look into them yourself.

Edited by Flava

 
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17th August, 2010 at 14:07:45 -

My one friends Macbook is cracking everywhere espeically at the back and the front where I guess the magnetic strip is placed for retaining the screen (Yet he still swears by Mac quality... typical fanboy ). One guy I know used to use a Macbook pro (Now has a thinkpad and a netbook), the optical drive packed up, the earphone socket only works if you apply pressure, and some other things i think packed up - he keeps it as a memento of "great" mac build quality. Just be careful Flava - hopefully the Macbooks are better now...

Cheap components or not, hardware should not slowdown due to age (optical drives perhaps if they are dusty and hard drives will if they are failing). A CPU,RAM and graphics card will run at the same clock speed from day one to when it stops working - assuming a thermal controller does not slow down the clock due to insufficient cooling (dust again!).

Sounds like you need to defrag/uninstall some useless memory hogging software/clean the dust out to me... Never had a problem with keeping one of my self built PC's running to the best of their potential. Laptops are especially prone to clock throttling due to poor cooling.

On a side note note does Mr Jobbs hunt Hackintosh users down?

 
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17th August, 2010 at 14:58:45 -

Regarding my laptop issues, it was a heat issue not an ageing issue. Cheap components often use cheaper materials which are more prone to heat - my issues were not necessarily speed issues. My graphics card had issues after a year were it was no longer displaying certain things correctly and my hard drive generally became slow as time went on (I took it out and found out it was a known unreliable hard drive). Also have a self-made PC which I've never had any problems with - but that's likely because I made sure to pay for the extra cooling and good quality components.

I have heard of the Macbook cracking issue in the past but I believe that has mostly been resolved now. I can really only go on my friends' word though - I have three friends who have had Macbook Pros for the last 3-5 years and none of them have ever had a problem with them.

 
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17th August, 2010 at 15:33:46 -


Originally Posted by ..::hagar::..
I have never seen anyone with a Zune in the UK. Its either an Ipod over here, your phone or a Creative Zen.



Thats because of Microsofts excellent expansion skills. Despite the Zune being better than the iPod and the Zune service - Zune Pass especially, being better and the Zune Software being significantly better than iTunes, Microsoft is having above and beyond a difficult time convincing an ignorant country (US) much less world, to see that.

On top of that, as you hear all the time, Apple fans love to swear by whatever they use because they so love the fact that they seemed to have found the light, meanwhile the audience who buys the Zune are a lot more passive. They know we want quality but they don't care, for the most part, who wants to touch their pretty new toy. It works, period.

Make no mistake though, they may not be every direction you look over here, but when you start over turning rocks, you'll be shocked at how many people do actually use them and most people who do use one, love it.
The problem is Apple basically made the word MP3 player and iPod synonymous and owning anything but iPod is not cool, especially if its roots started out as a blatant poop brick rip-off - despite coming a very long way.

I own a Zune 8 and a Zune HD16 and I love it.

Edited by Silveraura

 
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17th August, 2010 at 17:58:52 -

I own an iPod Touch because it does everything I want and more, not because I think it's "cool". Would be interested to know what the Zune does better though - Microsoft haven't even marketed the Zune over here and I haven't heard anything about it on Gizmodo/Engadget since the Zune HD was announced.

Edited by Flava

 
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17th August, 2010 at 19:29:39 -

I don't even know what a zune is. Couldn't they have picked another name?

 
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17th August, 2010 at 19:38:30 -

There is only two things I do not like with the Ipod:
1) A lack of drag and drop
2) My first and only ipod packing up, about 6 months after I replaced the battery (built in failure time perhaps? I suspect so, the same thing happened to another engineer I used to work with - he also changed the battery). I detest inbuilt batteries - its making the device a throw away commodity - Lithium Ion and LiPo cells do not have that many charge/discharge cycles. Numerous friends of mine have dead/useless ipods - but they keep going out and buying every generation that comes out.

Flava there is people that will buy Apple products without even looking at what else is on offer to qoute Onion News "I'll buy anything from Apple as its long as its shiny and plastic!" types - but there is fanboys like that for every product . As an engineer I can not see why people keep going out and buying the same series of products if it breaks or even worse if the current device is working but they just want the newest one.

I am still not convinced about the cheap hardware argument. My Toshiba laptop is still runnning nice (was not much more expensive, has a Core 2 Duo CPU and a Intel Video chipset - I do not use it for games so this does not bother me. I think I brought it Christmas time 06 or Janury 07 but I did put XP rather than Vista is came with.

 
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17th August, 2010 at 20:03:56 -

I have a MacBook for compiling iPhone apps and I like it for the most part. It's a bit harder to get to your files cause of how the file browsing is setup, but I guess it's just cause that's not what I'm used to.

I have newest model (not pro) and it's slower than my 2 year old Dell vostro. Dunno why but it runs the mac versions of the adobe products a lot slower. Could just be the fact that it's not optimzed for mac.

Anyway, if I didn't need it for iPhone apps I wouldn't have one, but it's certainly not a disappointment either.

 
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17th August, 2010 at 20:11:16 -


Originally Posted by Flava
I own an iPod Touch because it does everything I want and more, not because I think it's "cool".

This. Although I'm leaving it at home while I go to college since I have my Droid X and my mother wanted an iPod to use.

I had a friend with a first generation iPod Touch who sold it to get the money to buy a Zune HD, convinced that it was the better product, with HD screen and all that. For the first few days he used to think it was so cool, especially the way it displayed album art and info while playing music, but eventually he realized that it wasn't that great (with a slow web browser and not many apps) so he traded it back for his original iPod Touch and was happy again.

 
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17th August, 2010 at 20:28:17 -

I'm running Windows 7 on a relatively new iMac (the 24.5 inch ones that can't be bought new anymore from my knowledge). I love it, and I use the Mac half for schoolwork.

 
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Ricky

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17th August, 2010 at 21:49:22 -

I have a 9 dollar sony mp3 player. It's great, you just stick it into your PC like a usb drive and drag the songs into the folder. No software instillation needed. And I would never use iTunes, my sister has, and had to delete all her songs because she forgot her password, wtf apple? Amazon mp3 is way better.

 
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You've Been Circy'd!Teddy Bear
17th August, 2010 at 23:16:42 -

@Matt: Still tempted with a Mac but that will be when I get some cash I dont end up spending on commuting or lego (lego is a lot of fun)

@Ricky: I used to use a small cheap philips MP3 player (drag and drop & awesome battery life - plus the menu was system is wonderfully simple) until I got my new nokia phone, just one less thing to carry around but its not as good.



 
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Matthew Wiese

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18th August, 2010 at 00:15:28 -

You're obsessed with Lego too? I've been playing with Lego ever since I wouldn't swallow random stuff (which if my memory server rights was quite early, I was a sharp baby if I do say so myself). Lego is awesome!

I'm in love with my Mac, even though I don't really use the Mac side of it. The 2.8 core 2 duo processor is very good for me. Plays lots of great commercial games.

 
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Silveraura

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18th August, 2010 at 01:37:24 -


Originally Posted by Jon Lambert

Originally Posted by Flava
I own an iPod Touch because it does everything I want and more, not because I think it's "cool".

This. Although I'm leaving it at home while I go to college since I have my Droid X and my mother wanted an iPod to use.

I had a friend with a first generation iPod Touch who sold it to get the money to buy a Zune HD, convinced that it was the better product, with HD screen and all that. For the first few days he used to think it was so cool, especially the way it displayed album art and info while playing music, but eventually he realized that it wasn't that great (with a slow web browser and not many apps) so he traded it back for his original iPod Touch and was happy again.



3 reasons I prefer Zune.
* Zune Pass, $14 a month for unlimited music download streaming and you keep 10 free songs you choose, each month. DRM free.
-- You can also stream and download music anywhere as long as your in a wifi zone. Very nice if you're at school and suddenly want to listen to something in particular. The SmatDJ feature also makes use of this. Any music you buy on Zune is DRM free too.
* Zune Software is a lot better then iTunes in just about every way.
* ZuneHD has a very nice OLED display which doesn't drain the battery at full brightness and maintains crystal clear vibrant colors from pitch black to bright white, even on the brightest setting.

 
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OMC

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18th August, 2010 at 02:10:21 -

Agh, cheap MP3 players are crap. My sister and I started out with them, and they are awful.

 

  		
  		

Flava



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18th August, 2010 at 09:52:54 -


Originally Posted by SiLVERFIRE

Originally Posted by Jon Lambert

Originally Posted by Flava
I own an iPod Touch because it does everything I want and more, not because I think it's "cool".

This. Although I'm leaving it at home while I go to college since I have my Droid X and my mother wanted an iPod to use.

I had a friend with a first generation iPod Touch who sold it to get the money to buy a Zune HD, convinced that it was the better product, with HD screen and all that. For the first few days he used to think it was so cool, especially the way it displayed album art and info while playing music, but eventually he realized that it wasn't that great (with a slow web browser and not many apps) so he traded it back for his original iPod Touch and was happy again.



3 reasons I prefer Zune.
* Zune Pass, $14 a month for unlimited music download streaming and you keep 10 free songs you choose, each month. DRM free.
-- You can also stream and download music anywhere as long as your in a wifi zone. Very nice if you're at school and suddenly want to listen to something in particular. The SmatDJ feature also makes use of this. Any music you buy on Zune is DRM free too.
* Zune Software is a lot better then iTunes in just about every way.
* ZuneHD has a very nice OLED display which doesn't drain the battery at full brightness and maintains crystal clear vibrant colors from pitch black to bright white, even on the brightest setting.



The Zune pass thing sounds interesting, but I doubt I would use it much (I actually don't buy or listen to much new music). The Zune software does look better but that doesn't really justify buying a new device in my opinion.

Really I was hoping the Zune did something completely different to the iPod touch or any other device - does it have any extremely useful applications or anything? I heard the marketplace doesn't really have that many apps.

Edited by Flava

 
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Hagar

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You've Been Circy'd!Teddy Bear
18th August, 2010 at 10:20:18 -

Silverfire I do hope you realise OLED displays are actually very power hungry. LCD's have one light source (backlight) which takes a fair bit of power but the LCD display itself takes hardly anything. On the other hand every pixel on a LED display is active and draining current. OLED TV's are about the same as equivalent plasmas in terms of power consumption, just to prove this point .

@OMC: I can not see a problem with an MP3 player as long as it: lets me browse album/artist/genre, has good sound quality, and decent battery life. My little philips did of all of these so what is the problem with it? . I have no want nor desire to see album covers (I have the CD's/LP's/singles anyway I can look at them if I want), play games on it or browse the web.

@Matt: Yes I love lego lol, I think there is a few lego fans lurking around on TDC . Mainly technic but I do system too. Most recent set I built is the 8868 Air Tech Claw Rig.






 
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Silveraura

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18th August, 2010 at 13:10:49 -


Originally Posted by ..::hagar::..
Silverfire I do hope you realise OLED displays are actually very power hungry. LCD's have one light source (backlight) which takes a fair bit of power but the LCD display itself takes hardly anything. On the other hand every pixel on a LED display is active and draining current. OLED TV's are about the same as equivalent plasmas in terms of power consumption, just to prove this point .

@OMC: I can not see a problem with an MP3 player as long as it: lets me browse album/artist/genre, has good sound quality, and decent battery life. My little philips did of all of these so what is the problem with it? . I have no want nor desire to see album covers (I have the CD's/LP's/singles anyway I can look at them if I want), play games on it or browse the web.

@Matt: Yes I love lego lol, I think there is a few lego fans lurking around on TDC . Mainly technic but I do system too. Most recent set I built is the 8868 Air Tech Claw Rig.







Not true. If I keep my Droids LCD screen on for 2 hours straight, my battery is almost dead. If I keep my ZuneHD screen on for 2 hours, I barely lose 1/4 of the battery power. This on top of the very vivid colors make the device perfect for watching movies, especially in the dark where you get the true wide array of pitch blacks and bright whites.

@Flava, the app "market" on the Zune is horrible. Besides having stuff like Audiosurf Tilt and Facebook, there's really not much, but they are all free. If you get a dock for the ZuneHD though, it has 720p HD HDMI output. It also has an HD radio tuner which is really nice and one of the only handhold devices to have one built in.

Plus, the screen to device size ratio is very good on the Zune. The screen is slightly smaller then the iPod Touch but the whole device is much smaller and thinner. This makes it very convenient to have in your pocket at all times.

 
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OMC

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18th August, 2010 at 13:44:26 -


Originally Posted by ..::hagar::..
@OMC: I can not see a problem with an MP3 player as long as it: lets me browse album/artist/genre, has good sound quality, and decent battery life. My little philips did of all of these so what is the problem with it? . I have no want nor desire to see album covers (I have the CD's/LP's/singles anyway I can look at them if I want), play games on it or browse the web.



Maybe mine was even cheaper than yours. Because navigation was miserable. It ran on a AAA and the build quality was utter crap. Eventually had to press down on the USB cable to get it to work before it finally failed.

My sister's was a thumb drive with a screen. Navigation on it too was terrible.

 

  		
  		

Hagar

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You've Been Circy'd!Teddy Bear
18th August, 2010 at 13:44:38 -

Silverfire have you any idea of how to test something fairly in engineering? Using the same battery capacity and testing ONLY the displays current draw (not a whole load of other junk drawing current) an LCD would win in normal use. I have numerous degrees in electronics, and I have even designed products with LCD and OLED displays, OLEDs displays are awesome for quality though .

A small 1 inch OLED display I used takes about 100ma at 65% brightness displaying a normal stats screen from a 5V supply (thats 500mW!). Find me a 1 inch LCD that takes that much.

OLEDs can beat LCDs on black images and on dull/dark images (I will let you have that one ), but nromal conditions a LCD wins ( I presume the Zune uses black screens for pretty much everything). Viewing a bright scene can draw many times the current of a LCD. Do not get me started on the lifespan of these devices. We abanonded OLEDs at work due to this (as these devices HAD to be left on 24/7).

There is a lot of confusion on the Net about OLEDs, but you heard this direct from an engineer.



 
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Silveraura

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18th August, 2010 at 14:16:39 -

All I know is that the ZuneHD's screen can stay on for hours on end with little impact on the battery life. I'm not going to pretend like I don't care about the technical information because I do, but in this context... OLED is one of the advantages to using a ZuneHD. It's excellent for video.

 
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Flava



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18th August, 2010 at 14:38:48 -

I'll still probably stick with my iPod considering MS barely even support the Zune in the UK - it sounds interesting though. Is there anywhere I can check out apps for the Zune? I downloaded the Zune software and found nowhere for the marketplace. The interface looks really nice though.

 
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Dogzer



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20th August, 2010 at 06:00:01 -

I picture mac users as.. I don't know.. babies? just laying there in their lil baby crib being amazed at the pretty colors, not knowing nothing about the world.. You have any idea how much it costs to buy a baby illegally? TONS man.. and that's how much getting a mac costs you, get it?.. PERFECT ANALOGY

PC users are grown men and they fuck bitches, they know how to get around, and wont take any shit from anyone.. 2k for a basic rig? f* that!

All PCs I've bought were around 1k and were top notch for their time, I made each one last from 4 to 6 years, until they were so rusty and started to smell bad from so much coffee and cereal I've spilled on, I usually upgrade for 150/200 bux to get back in the game for a couple of more years, I always want to be at the top of my game.. you guys know that

Even If money wasn't a big deal, I think I might still go for a PC.. man... windows.. plug'n'play. I mean, it doesn't rock but everything is made for windows, you're invited to every party, but if you're a mac user, you gotta start asking yourself 'is it compatible?', you're fuck'd! And to think they're more expensive... D'UH, forget it niggars!

 
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Hagar

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You've Been Circy'd!Teddy Bear
20th August, 2010 at 10:04:03 -

"Lol classic Ashman!"

Thats kinda my point though, my PC is still on par with the 2000 pound Mac pro, over a year after I built it for way under half the price. I used to use my PC's as long as possible but my work has changed now requiring beefy machines (mmmm beef). Where's the beef!?

Coffee and cereal stains are mandatory for any serious PC user...



 
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Matthew Wiese

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20th August, 2010 at 15:52:58 -


Originally Posted by Dogzer
I picture mac users as.. I don't know.. babies? just laying there in their lil baby crib being amazed at the pretty colors, not knowing nothing about the world.. You have any idea how much it costs to buy a baby illegally? TONS man.. and that's how much getting a mac costs you, get it?.. PERFECT ANALOGY

PC users are grown men and they fuck bitches, they know how to get around, and wont take any shit from anyone.. 2k for a basic rig? f* that!

All PCs I've bought were around 1k and were top notch for their time, I made each one last from 4 to 6 years, until they were so rusty and started to smell bad from so much coffee and cereal I've spilled on, I usually upgrade for 150/200 bux to get back in the game for a couple of more years, I always want to be at the top of my game.. you guys know that

Even If money wasn't a big deal, I think I might still go for a PC.. man... windows.. plug'n'play. I mean, it doesn't rock but everything is made for windows, you're invited to every party, but if you're a mac user, you gotta start asking yourself 'is it compatible?', you're fuck'd! And to think they're more expensive... D'UH, forget it niggars!



All that swearing is not necessary for what you're trying to get across. You're showing the exact side of the debate that's going on, Mac and PC users yelling and swearing at each other without and real "evidence" to support what they're yelling about. Bad mouthing like that will get you no where.


Originally Posted by Dogzer
ven If money wasn't a big deal, I think I might still go for a PC.. man... windows.. plug'n'play. I mean, it doesn't rock but everything is made for windows, you're invited to every party, but if you're a mac user, you gotta start asking yourself 'is it compatible?', you're fuck'd! And to think they're more expensive... D'UH, forget it niggars!



And this isn't true either, just use bootcamp for all your games and you don't have to tell yourself "Oh I'm a dumbass for not reading if this is Windows or Mac." Dogzer you really disappoint me by the way you act.

 
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Silveraura

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21st August, 2010 at 03:27:18 -

Dogzer is a half-bread troll. He's helpful at times but others, not so much. Don't feed it.

 
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Hagar

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You've Been Circy'd!Teddy Bear
21st August, 2010 at 12:47:26 -

Poor guy, I hope he is other half is a good bread like a Granary loaf.

 
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Matthew Wiese

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21st August, 2010 at 12:52:58 -

Uh oh, yeah now that you say that I think I fed him. Is there any way to make a troll throw up? I want my food back.

 
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Jenswa

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22nd August, 2010 at 11:37:28 -

About Apple or the mac or the ipod or the iphone or whatever thing they create, it's mostly beautiful and it just works and works good together with all other Apple stuff.

But do you want mister Apple to decide for you what you can and can't do with your Apple product? Unless you're planning on hacking or jailbraiking it for normal usage.

I would go for a home made pc setup.

Not that I've one, but that's because of space limitations and my new green laptop is doing its best to deal with that


 
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Dogzer



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28th August, 2010 at 07:20:00 -


Originally Posted by ..::hagar::..
Poor guy, I hope he is other half is a good bread like a Granary loaf.



Oh look at the lil mac user trying to justify all the money his spent on his overpriced INTEL, inside a supposedly 'cool' design, sure, lets love the design, lets hold on to that as hard as we can cuz pretending you really really love the design it's the only way people wont think you are just stupid and retarded for paying that much money for a computer.

You know.. I think that's the problem with mac users, denial, why admit you got day robbed, that'd be embarrassing! They rather stick to their story and keep saying mac's are so cute lil things and it feels so good to use a mac. Let me tell you something, i've used a mac, it's just another fucking computer! Nothing spectacular about it, certainly not worth the money.


 
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Hagar

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You've Been Circy'd!Teddy Bear
31st August, 2010 at 12:07:19 -


Originally Posted by Dogzer

Originally Posted by ..::hagar::..
Poor guy, I hope he is other half is a good bread like a Granary loaf.



Oh look at the lil mac user trying to justify all the money his spent on his overpriced INTEL, inside a supposedly 'cool' design, sure, lets love the design, lets hold on to that as hard as we can cuz pretending you really really love the design it's the only way people wont think you are just stupid and retarded for paying that much money for a computer.

You know.. I think that's the problem with mac users, denial, why admit you got day robbed, that'd be embarrassing! They rather stick to their story and keep saying mac's are so cute lil things and it feels so good to use a mac. Let me tell you something, i've used a mac, it's just another fucking computer! Nothing spectacular about it, certainly not worth the money.



Although I kind of agree with you Moriarty (my equally old and cantankerous clicking fellow), you have failed in examining the evidence. If you care to read my posts, I have not brought a mac of any shape or form.

Checkmate.


 
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Dogzer



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31st August, 2010 at 22:49:10 -

omg! that's even worse!!!!111122two... the only thing worse than a mac user in denial is.. a mac user in denial WANNABE! loooooOOoooOool! omg my nipples got hard from so much laughing!

<END OF BATTLE>

Scoreboard
Haggar: 0
Dogzer: a million!

 
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Muz



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1st September, 2010 at 18:01:02 -

Don't buy a mac unless you have a reason to. It's got its pros but it's just not cost-effective. It's good, but if you can find a better way to do whatever with a standard PC, get the PC. Apple is a fashion statement.

 
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.

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Hagar

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You've Been Circy'd!Teddy Bear
1st September, 2010 at 22:43:53 -


Originally Posted by Dogzer
omg! that's even worse!!!!111122two... the only thing worse than a mac user in denial is.. a mac user in denial WANNABE! loooooOOoooOool! omg my nipples got hard from so much laughing!

<END OF BATTLE>

Scoreboard
Haggar: 0
Dogzer: a million!



Lol classic Ashman .

Spelling round goes to Hagar, I will let you have the nonsensical rhetoric round

You should really see a therapist about your nipple problem Dogzer, thats not normal - especially over a Mac or Mac users.

Did a Mac user whoop you at a frag match or something because he had less lag and higher FPS? (Not a problem I have when gaming with my PC). Or did you ask Santa for a Mac but he never came up with the goods? I don't know, that man takes our mince pies and sherrys for what!??


 
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Hagar

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You've Been Circy'd!Teddy Bear
1st September, 2010 at 22:46:29 -


Originally Posted by Muz
Don't buy a mac unless you have a reason to. It's got its pros but it's just not cost-effective. It's good, but if you can find a better way to do whatever with a standard PC, get the PC. Apple is a fashion statement.



I did learn Logic years ago (which used to be Windows or Mac) but Mr Jobbs brought the company out and made it apple only. I need to put my hand in my pocket and buy cakewalk sonar

 
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JustinC



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4th September, 2010 at 04:26:39 -

Honest Answer: No. You have to really really like it, and really really want one. For whatever reason.

I've used windows since I was 11 years old. I'm used to it. I know how to get things done with it. The programs I know and like are on it. I do freelance work for someone who swears by mac. He'll go on and on about how macs are superior to PCs. Whatever. If they work for you, it's what you should use. But they don't work for me. I have one. And like hayo, it's mostly collecting dust. I bought it for video editing. I had heard they were great for this. I have final cut studio. On my PC, I have sony vegas. I much much much prefer Vegas. I haven't gotten into motion graphics much, but if I do it will probably be with adobe after effects. I have messed with motion a bit but can't get into it.

When I use a mac everything takes longer. The mouse acceleration is clunky and innacurate. The dock is annoying. The way a program's menu bar is not attached to the window is irritating. The way final cut and other programs are divided into separate windows is annoying.

Basically, I'm not a fan. I have nothing against the OS. If you like it you should use it. But I get so tired of hearing how mac is so superior. How there's some behind the scenes technical reason why video editing on a mac is superior. Guess what, I don't know what goes on behind the scenes of the OS, and I don't care. My interactions are based on the programs I use and the functional use of the OS itself.

Macs are overpriced. There is no getting around that. I do not believe the price can be justified. They have some better components yes. And the fact that the hardware and software are tied together can be helpful in some ways. And the US based tech support is hugely appreciated by me. But it's all about perception. Much like luxury cars. A lexus is just a toyota with leather and a bunch of extra options as standard. But people pay the premium.

If you are in love with macs based on your use of them, and there is a reason you need a more niche product that will not be as widely compatible as a PC, whether it be some Mac only software, or a hardware reason that only you understand, then you should get one.


 
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Dogzer



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4th September, 2010 at 08:44:15 -

Oh look at the lil PC user hating mac... What, can't you afford best that technology can offer so you dedicate yourself to bash that you can't have? Look, it's simple, macs are top notch technology, clean, straightforward, no bullshit.. Why would anyone ever buy a pc? Games? I got a fucking PS3, XBOX and a WII which were specifically done for gaming, FUCK PCs! As for everything else... do you really want to use any software that's not in 100% perfect harmony with its hardware, specifically done for it, no driver problems, no bad configurations, just focus on what matters, which is you using your god damn computer!
Personally, I'm a mac LOVER, and not because of a brand caprice i've develop thanks to mac advertising, nor other mac lover's word of mouth convincing... it's because my mac loves me the fuck BACK, man... you think your PC loves you back? think again, driver problems, virus, bad quality components bottleheading your other components, oh complete lack of hardware DESIGN.. your pc fucking hates you, man, sorry you found out this way..

MAC FOREVER...

Hail Almighty Steve

Admin Note
  Please stop using the f-bomb.


 
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Hagar

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You've Been Circy'd!Teddy Bear
4th September, 2010 at 13:53:26 -

Roflmao, sudden change of tune there Dogzer (surprise surprise). I have a good gaming PC, a Wii, Xbox360 and pretty much every console to date (bar the Sony PlayStation series as those broke ).

Why don't you try answering the questions posed? Somebody did give you a good whooping at a PC game did'nt they?

Plus I think the term you are after is bottlenecking, not a bottleheading. It's a PC not a milk bottle factory.


 
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chrilley

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4th September, 2010 at 14:35:57 -

Image


 
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Dogzer



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4th September, 2010 at 15:18:31 -

y'all should use linux, it's much better

 
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Knockturnal

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5th September, 2010 at 11:49:35 -

>y'all should use linux, it's much better


No games allowed?

No really, linux is great but sucks in native programs. I mean, honestly, who really thinks gimp is better than CS5 in any way?

 
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Hagar

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You've Been Circy'd!Teddy Bear
5th September, 2010 at 12:09:06 -

Lol I agree Coca-Cola Man. Tried doing some video editing using Kdenlive, the linux alternatives really are not up to much - especially seeing as MLT is very buggy with 1080p AVHCD files. Gimp is great for being free, buts its no PS replacement.

The once I asked a Linux guru why all the coders do not pull together and make one good complete OS with good Apps, rather than 100s of distros plus half baked apps. It was like I had swore at his mother or something . Another Linux guy told me he likes having lots of distros as its ensures Linux will never become mainstream. What type of mentality is this...

"Glavens I like my distro becuase it allows me to compile linux for my 80286, and as an added bonus only 5 people use it"

 
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Dogzer



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5th September, 2010 at 14:35:52 -

you should all use IBM and get it over with!

 
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Hagar

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You've Been Circy'd!Teddy Bear
5th September, 2010 at 17:53:14 -

IBM?!?!?

Real men use Amiga OS!

 
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JustinC



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GOTM - MAY 2009 - 3RD PLACE!
6th September, 2010 at 00:28:40 -

My Atari ST is sleek, quiet, and grey. The OS and Hardware are all one being. They work together in perfect harmony. Ask yourself, how many modern OSes have a standard neon green desktop background? None, that's how many. If you're an atari user, you're obviously intelligent, and you'd know that the neon green background causes perfect harmony between your eyes and other colors. My Atari ST has NEVER CRASHED. Every floppy I put in runs perfectly. Just put it in, wait 17 minutes for it to load, and off you go. Oh and the mouse is brilliant. It is completely ergonomic and greyish beige. Are imacs greyish beige? No, didn't think so. How about PCs? Nope, PCs come in all sorts of bright colors. Bright colors are for steers and queers.

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Hagar

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Old klik fart

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You've Been Circy'd!Teddy Bear
6th September, 2010 at 15:16:56 -

My Dragon 32 also used a cool neon green background for everything

http://www.happypenguin.org/images/xroarsnap.png

Mmmm 80s.

Still, real men use an Amiga!

 
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Muz



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VIP MemberI'm on a BoatI am an April FoolHonored Admin Alumnus
7th September, 2010 at 13:24:39 -


Originally Posted by Coca-Cola Man
>y'all should use linux, it's much better
No games allowed?

No really, linux is great but sucks in native programs. I mean, honestly, who really thinks gimp is better than CS5 in any way?



You can run DOSBox. And most roguelikes and browser games run better on linux than windows. That's all the games you need

 
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.

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Silveraura

God's God

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  08/08/2002
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Game of the Week WinnerKlikCast StarAlien In Training!VIP Member360 OwnerWii OwnerSonic SpeedThe Cake is a LieComputerChristmas Tree!
I am an April Fool
8th September, 2010 at 13:35:50 -

Originally Posted by JustinC
My Atari ST is sleek, quiet, and grey. The OS and Hardware are all one being. They work together in perfect harmony. Ask yourself, how many modern OSes have a standard neon green desktop background? None, that's how many. If you're an atari user, you're obviously intelligent, and you'd know that the neon green background causes perfect harmony between your eyes and other colors. My Atari ST has NEVER CRASHED. Every floppy I put in runs perfectly. Just put it in, wait 17 minutes for it to load, and off you go. Oh and the mouse is brilliant. It is completely ergonomic and greyish beige. Are imacs greyish beige? No, didn't think so. How about PCs? Nope, PCs come in all sorts of bright colors. Bright colors are for steers and queers.

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Everything you've said here is absolutely true except for the mouse being ergonomic. It's far from it.

 
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Dogzer



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  07/02/2011
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  1029
8th September, 2010 at 14:48:57 -


Originally Posted by SiLVERFIRE
Originally Posted by JustinC
My Atari ST is sleek, quiet, and grey. The OS and Hardware are all one being. They work together in perfect harmony. Ask yourself, how many modern OSes have a standard neon green desktop background? None, that's how many. If you're an atari user, you're obviously intelligent, and you'd know that the neon green background causes perfect harmony between your eyes and other colors. My Atari ST has NEVER CRASHED. Every floppy I put in runs perfectly. Just put it in, wait 17 minutes for it to load, and off you go. Oh and the mouse is brilliant. It is completely ergonomic and greyish beige. Are imacs greyish beige? No, didn't think so. How about PCs? Nope, PCs come in all sorts of bright colors. Bright colors are for steers and queers.

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Everything you've said here is absolutely true except for the mouse being ergonomic. It's far from it.



SPEAK FOR YOURSELF! You must be one of those roundhands type of people everyeone's been talking about, you don't have the average square hand we all have around here
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