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nim



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27th May, 2010 at 03:55:34 -

There was one news post here about Wake and then the crapstorm Pod started over at Tigsource, but apart from that there hasn't been much talk of Tormishire/James on the forums since he quietly left. It seems strange since like a billion people marked Tormishire as one of their favourite games

Anyway, James doesn't post here anymore but I still sometimes check his site. The latest news is that things are coming to an end at Boss Baddie. The main reason appears to be piracy, which is a shame. I mean, it's a shame they're stopping because of that. What was once a hobby turned into a business, which was turned into a "worthless" business by piracy, and then the whole thing was ended. Another reason is that he's going back to uni, but you can read the news post for yourself!

Another interesting thing is Mr Pineapple's comment, where he says that he made 10 pounds in total from the sales of Wake and the Tormishire OST. Either James isn't giving his music guy a very good cut of the profits or that doesn't equate to very good sales.
http://satansam.co.uk/blog/?p=1118#comment-80808

They're working on one last game: Lunnye 2. So, it looks like anyone waiting for Tormishire or Satan Sam 2 are going to be let down. Discuss!

 
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27th May, 2010 at 04:07:58 -

I've bought all his games.

Wake was my favorite, but i haven't been able to beat it yet.

If you want to start an indie company don't quit your day job.

 
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27th May, 2010 at 06:36:19 -

Just read that 'crapstorm', man, some people sure know how to waste their own time.

I've little knowledge of the various 'dramas' and even less interest in them, of course, but I think it's a shame to see anyone's entrance into the commercial indie world fail. I'm hoping we can keep this thread pleasant enough without the need for defamation similar to that on tigsource, subtle or otherwise.

With regards to the Tormishire OST - pure speculation on my part, but I can't imagine a developer could claim much of a cut from a musician's OST release. It seems very much that sales were low and piracy was rife. World Of Goo's piracy stats are staggering, if you take the time to look at them - fortunately for 2DBoy, they had a much larger exposure to their product, as well as console ventures, so inevitably more custom.

 
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nim



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27th May, 2010 at 07:19:31 -

I love that 2DBoy were so open about the World of Goo piracy (almost 90%) and the shameful results of the "Pay What You Want" experiment. Fortunately, they still made a profit.

http://www.joystiq.com/2008/11/13/world-of-goo-has-90-piracy-rate/
http://2dboy.com/2009/10/19/birthday-sale-results/

Anyway, I hope he still continues to work on his games even after Boss Baddie. Personally, I wasn't a huge fan of The New Satan Sam and Wake was too HWA-heavy for my tastes (and my computer), but Tormishire always seemed to represent where James had hit a happy middle ground between nice effects and interesting gameplay.

 
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27th May, 2010 at 13:28:28 -

That's a real shame. I wonder if he talked to any publishers of indie games that have been cropping up lately? And Boss Baddie was such a cool name, too.

Best of luck to him in his studies and future career. And Mr. Pineapple too!

 

  		
  		

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27th May, 2010 at 15:55:11 -

This is why I never bother trying to sell my games. Then again, I'm not the kind of person who makes games for money. The thought alone that hundreds/thousands of people are enjoying something I created is enough of an incentive to keep myself in the indie game business. That, and if I'm good enough, professional developers will come to me rather than the other way around. That's my dream, at least.

Anyway, it always kinda irks me when developers suddenly discontinue projects like this that they've been working on for years and years, especially if they develop a huge fan following in the process. It can be a pretty big letdown, to say the least, especially if they don't go ahead and release what's done as some sort of demo/Disc 1 dealy.

 

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27th May, 2010 at 19:13:31 -

A crying shame. I never played any of Jimmi's games (and I don't really know why), but I knew the amount of work put into them was massive.

Seems today there are just some things that don't make money (or very rarely do). Indie games would be one of them, independent journalism would be another; society has devalued them so much despite their very obvious merits.

 
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27th May, 2010 at 22:51:21 -

He's not exactly helping himself by making mini Tormishire-type games using the same engine with what I refer to as "lazy graphics" (See Knytt stories) then asking people to pay for them without initially providing any demos.

I'm wondering if he realises the majority of people don't give a hoot (to put it politely) about 360 controller support or "Digital Manuals"

James also has an issue with over-hyping his own work. With Tormishire, he's made so many blog entries, filled to the brim with impressive statistics (the map has over 300 rooms so it's going to be an amazing game), revamped graphics and soundtrack information on the epic wonder, yet recently he's just let it take a back seat for apparently less superior games, Pretty much digging his own hole.

He should take a leaf out of Konjak and Bernie's book and just release a game when it's done and stop rabbiting on about Xbox controller support.

 
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27th May, 2010 at 23:57:59 -

Aah shut up Adam. This isn't about your personal digs at Jay, and his games. This is about piracy harming the profitability of a small independent game studio, forcing them to stop making games. If Jay wants to 'rabbit on about Xbox controller support' then it's his prerogative to do so, he's not making you read it. Maybe you should take a leaf out of everybody else on this thread and not be a wanker?...

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28th May, 2010 at 00:06:11 -

Wow. mature. You can put it down to personal digs if you want, yet my points stand perfectly valid.

As for taking a leaf from this thread, perhaps you're not proof reading your own posts, Matthew.

Note: Interesting who you sided with back when James spoke about his home cinema and swimming pool that he later denied to have

Image

Edited by Ski

 
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28th May, 2010 at 01:46:20 -

This is the worst news I've heard all week. It's really too bad he's quitting on his hobbie just because of piracy... The New Satan Sam left such a huge impression on me, I had to play through it at least twice: I usually play klik games through just once. Also, Tormishire looked so awesome. I can't believe it's gonna be cancelled now.

R.I.P. in advance, Boss Baddie.

 
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28th May, 2010 at 02:01:51 -

The business might close down but that doesn't mean we wont see new freeware games.

 
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28th May, 2010 at 02:05:24 -

Originally Posted by -Adam-
Wow. mature. You can put it down to personal digs if you want, yet my points stand perfectly valid.

As for taking a leaf from this thread, perhaps you're not proof reading your own posts, Matthew.

Note: Interesting who you sided with back when James spoke about his home cinema and swimming pool that he later denied to have

Image

You know, I do sometimes wonder why the content of your posts, like your original one in this thread, aren't shunned by more people. Things like stating the 'fact' that there is an issue ( in your opinion) with this James guy and that he's digging himself a hole (again, in your hopeful opinion). We're almost all adults here, it's a genuine wonder that you're not told off more for this kind of nonsense.

I know a fair few people here have fallen in and out of your favour and so are familiar with what it's like, but you seem to go through so many friends and foes in this community it's a wonder there's anyone left to swallow your exaggerated, slanderous rubbish. Actually, is there? Who of us are you trying to convince with these derogatory facts of yours, is something I often find myself wondering, as I sit down to read your latest overly strong opinion on a stranger from the internet. Man, such unnecessary hate.

Also loving the file name of that image from your personal collection of incriminating screen grabs of internet people. "Oh dear.png"?

Oh dear indeed.

And while I'm here, shame on you for wielding that same tired, old battle axe in a thread that's nothing to do with that and involves the hard work of at least one other person going down the pan (MrPineapple). I do accept it's quite possible you have plenty to tell us about him too, of course. And as for hyping a game, I dunno, is that really so bad? I just think it's a byproduct of enthusiasm most of the time. It's harmless and it's alright by me, and certainly nothing I read from you would change my mind on that. The day a TDC member like Jess Bowers starts speaking ill of people the way you do is the day I might start taking notice. But everyone knows that's not going to happen - and for a very good reason. I hope you think more on that last point than you do a smart reply that attempts to undermine and insult those who criticise you.

Hey, a girl can dream.

 
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28th May, 2010 at 02:13:33 -

If only you extracted that journalistic quality and put the effort into working on games, Rule. We might actually see something from you in the meager couple of years you've hung around. You know... more than a handful of people might actually know who you are, or recognise your public fascia, at least.

 
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28th May, 2010 at 02:15:03 -

Thats a massive shame, His work was amazing imo. Tormishire was set to be a classic.

 
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28th May, 2010 at 02:27:34 -


Originally Posted by -Adam-
If only you extracted that journalistic quality and put the effort into working on games, Rule. We might actually see something from you in the meager couple of years you've hung around. You know... more than a handful of people might actually know who you are, or recognise your public fascia, at least.

You say that as though he weren't working on Rural Fishing: http://www.create-games.com/project.asp?view=main&id=1883

Of course that isn't the point of this thread and I'm surprised that this fight should break out here, sorta. You all are going to have to stop this because it is contrary to proper site conduct. Stay on topic.

On topic, I read that blog post a bit ago and noticed that somewhere (I don't remember if it was in the context of that post) he said something leading me to believe that Tormishire wasn't exactly out of development, and that Lunnye would be the last new game they work on commercially. It is a shame though; he was always so excited to talk about Boss Baddie and how it was going on Facebook.

 
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28th May, 2010 at 02:29:03 -


Originally Posted by AndyUK
The business might close down but that doesn't mean we wont see new freeware games.



I didn't think of it like that. Gonna be really busy doing uni as well as games, but I suppose a fair few people manage to juggle both.

By the way, Jay's released a Pay What You Want thing for a couple of his games http://satansam.co.uk/bossbaddie/

 
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28th May, 2010 at 03:31:30 -

I don't get why having made games means anything about anything. It just doesn't, does it? I mean, Ive made loads of games Adam and you still dislike me. What kind of point are you trying to make?

I judge people by their personalities not their output. That's why I don't like you.

 
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28th May, 2010 at 03:50:58 -


Originally Posted by AndyUK
I don't get why having made games means anything about anything. It just doesn't, does it? I mean, Ive made loads of games Adam and you still dislike me. What kind of point are you trying to make?

I judge people by their personalities not their output. That's why I don't like you.



Ive just posted an entire list via PM to Matt about why I dislike James, and it doesn't really have anything to do with his games, more things he's said in the past and his attitude behind closed doors. When I see someone being so highly regarded yet know that he's no better (attitude wise) than myself behind the scenes it sickens me to see people falling for someone who's so false, and we all know Im not the kind of person to keep quiet about it. Phizzy could see it before anyone else a long time ago, I guess that's the one thing I can look back and agree with him on.

Edit: Oh and I couldn't give a hoot if you like me or not.



Edited by Ski

 
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28th May, 2010 at 03:56:55 -


Originally Posted by Matt Boothman
Gonna be really busy doing uni as well as games, but I suppose a fair few people manage to juggle both.



Juggle both? For me, that was when I had the most time to make games. Now I have like 6 minutes a day.

 
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28th May, 2010 at 04:07:06 -

Phizzy and James get on just fine now they know each other a little better. In fact We all play awesome zombie shooting games together. Fun is had.

 
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YAY FOR L4D2!
I need to join the click group on steam

Edited by Ricky

 
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28th May, 2010 at 04:16:39 -


Originally Posted by AndyUK
Phizzy and James get on just fine now they know each other a little better. In fact We all play awesome zombie shooting games together. Fun is had.



Oh I'm sure they're the perfect match

 
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28th May, 2010 at 05:18:53 -

(Only just cottoned on to this thread...)

I think this is a crying shame that Tormi is seemingly not going to get finished, for both James and Mr. Pineapple. Unfortunately piracy always has, and almost certainly always will, be a big part in any software developers life - still 10 for a year's work is bloody hard to take for any budding developer who pour as much time and devotion into their games as those guys were doing!

The idea of releasing smaller games based upon the same engine as a huge game like Tormi is something i think was a good mood - alot of people played those games, it should have helped the cash-flow whilst Tormi was being finished and kept their faces on the indie scene. I genuinly feel sorry for them that it hasn't worked out.

As for James himself - i spoke to him via pm a fair few times and found him to be a seemingly great guy who helped me out quite a bit. His enthusiasm for game-making was something i admired, i loved the fact that he incorporated XBox control pad support in his games (it's indeed a great joypad!) and the fact he "spoke about his home cinema and swimming pool that he later denied to have" really has nothing to do with me - why do i care about his home cinema system or if he was "lying" about it?

And for Mr. Rule (not that he needs us to justify him, but i wanted to say...) i am more than happy with his journalistic quality, as well as him being an admin on TDC - i think he's a great choice!

 
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28th May, 2010 at 05:34:09 -

Okay, found the part where he says he's going to finish Tormishire: http://satansam.co.uk/blog/?p=1165

 
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28th May, 2010 at 07:33:24 -

I just paid a reasonable price for his games in the pay-what-you-want sale.

Though polarising, I agree somewhat with what Adam has said. The lack of demos was really the only reason I didn't buy his games. I would have liked to buy them initially, but I didn't want to buy something without at least trying it first. It's pretty a standard thing to have. Customers shouldn't have to go on faith.

I've got an Xbox Controller for PC, so hopefully it will be fun to play with that

 
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28th May, 2010 at 10:38:47 -

I missed Pod's crapstorm. I was under the impression that guy grew up.

 
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28th May, 2010 at 10:41:49 -


Originally Posted by Hayo
I was under the impression that guy grew up.



lol

 
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28th May, 2010 at 16:26:31 -

I was wondering where the hell Dr. James has been lately.

*GULP*

Potential piracy is also somewhat concering me too for H2. I mean I've already been working on the thing for years and by the time it's done.. I mean I really would hate it if 5 years of sweat and blood ended up making me like $40 total.

ODW has not sold very well past the first couple weeks either. I guess it's just one of those things.

In any event, I for sure won't quit my day job!!

 
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28th May, 2010 at 19:03:22 -

This is why I got a real job.

 
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28th May, 2010 at 20:36:13 -

Indie games just doesn't make money. Way too many people in it, it's oversaturated. It's possible to make money, but the odds are so poor that you'd have a higher chance of getting into Harvard.

Capitalism just fails utterly when it comes to software. The idea behind it is that that if your prices are too high, the market forces would bring them down to whatever is most affordable. Well, here, pirates can undercut anyone's prices. A game's price is really just a forced donation.

 
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28th May, 2010 at 23:44:04 -

Hmm, you know I'm pretty sure James had been working on a demo for Tormishire that was actually a separate chapter altogether. I don't know why that never happened.

 
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29th May, 2010 at 06:56:46 -

Indie games just doesn't make money. Way too many people in it, it's oversaturated. It's possible to make money, but the odds are so poor that you'd have a higher chance of getting into Harvard.

Sorry that is just completely wrong. I don't know how you formed that opinion?

http://www.wolfire.com/humble
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http://www.gameproducer.net/2006/09/28/11316053-indie-game-sales/

http://greyaliengames.com/blog/some-fantastic-indie-sales-stats/
(Note Blue Tea Games = MMF developer)

http://greyaliengames.com/blog/i-have-sold-100000-units-online-woo/



 
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29th May, 2010 at 10:16:40 -

Making it in the indiegame scene is just like making it in the music industry in the sixties really. You have to be kind of talented, be original enough and have a large dose of luck at some point and then hope you aren't being ripped off. Personally I see any money I make with this as a huge bonus.

 
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29th May, 2010 at 11:18:58 -

I always think that if you have a good game at a reasonable price, then it will sell - whether it's an indie game or not. I personally didn't buy or play Wake because it looked a bit more-of-the-same compared to Lunnye. Maybe it was the re-use of the Tormishire engine that put me off or something, I'm not really sure. Maybe it would have been a better experience for me if I had a 360 controller..

Indie games can definitely make money though - you just need a decent price and you need to market it well. Which is easier said than done I suppose..

 
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29th May, 2010 at 12:09:40 -


Originally Posted by Assault Andy
Indie games just doesn't make money. Way too many people in it, it's oversaturated. It's possible to make money, but the odds are so poor that you'd have a higher chance of getting into Harvard.

Sorry that is just completely wrong. I don't know how you formed that opinion?



Whenever someone says that indie games don't make money, people link to those guys. The indie games bundle is a new example, and good one. Cliff Harris twists his stats out of proportion. If he really did make as much money as he suggests, he wouldn't be whining about not being able to make money. I bought one of his games, my sister bought another, and both were rip-offs. The demo was an hour or two of fun, the full game was barely more than the demos and the biggest waste of $20 ever. Will never buy again, and I doubt his success will last long.

Serious, full time indie contenders are groups like Spiderweb Software and Trophy Manager (130K players, 20-30% of them paying at any moment). But talking to some of them, they only get paid as much as the average grocery worker. Spiderweb earns like $100K per game, the income still keeps flowing in. Their secret? Hard work. And hard work = time = money. It doesn't mean anything if you make $100K of revenue from a game, but the game itself costs $120K to make.

Steve (Blue Tea Games) is a great example of a success story. He puts his games on TDC, but doesn't do it so much recently. He got some fairly poor responses to his games, but seems to be doing nicely in the shareware industry. Taking a comment from one of his old games on TDC:
"Thanks for the input guys, its good to hear from a community that support my game. Friends used to tell me that MMF is only for hobbyist and its impossible to make money. This is my limelight to disprove this. So if you really enjoy this game, go and tell your friends and family and anyone who like gaming! Spread this like a wildfire. My aim is to compete and beat the other big boys right now in the shareware puzzle market. From your word of mouth, I'll be another step closer =."


It's certainly not impossible, but it needs a lot of hard work and passion. For every person you hear making lots of money from it, there's one who only breaks even, and dozens of others you don't hear not making money. I still stand by that statement. Apparently Harvard has a 8-12% admission rate, which is probably higher than the rate of people who try to sell indie games and actually make a profit.

 
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I think it's important that if you're making a game, you're doing it because you love the game. Getting money for your game should just be a nice reward.

Edited by alastair john jack

 
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5th June, 2010 at 12:50:27 -

I agree with alastair. Making indie games should be a hobby, and making profit is only a bonus. If you want to make money with games, you should've gone to game university (However I am still trying to beat a friend of mine from a game school with my indie games )

 
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19th June, 2010 at 04:26:33 -

It's sad to see Tormishire abondoned, it's one of the only MMF games I was actually thinking of buying.

Originally Posted by -Adam-
what I refer to as "lazy graphics" (See Knytt stories).

And Adam,I could run you up and down the street for what you said here, but I'm not going to. You may think Knytt Stories sprites look lazy but some people actually think the simplicity is attractive, I wouldn't hae wanted to play KS with Tormi gfx, would you?

 
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19th June, 2010 at 04:46:32 -

This will be the second time I post this, but again, James apparently hasn't given up on Tormishire.

Originally Posted by Jon Lambert
Okay, found the part where he says he's going to finish Tormishire: http://satansam.co.uk/blog/?p=1165
Also...

Originally Posted by Matthew Wiese
It's sad to see Tormishire abondoned, it's one of the only MMF games I was actually thinking of buying.

Originally Posted by -Adam-
what I refer to as "lazy graphics" (See Knytt stories).

And Adam,I could run you up and down the street for what you said here, but I'm not going to. You may think Knytt Stories sprites look lazy but some people actually think the simplicity is attractive, I wouldn't hae wanted to play KS with Tormi gfx, would you?


With regards to what Adam says, just because graphics are attractive in their simplicity does not mean they are not lazy, as laziness is a function of how little work has been done or desired to be done in something into which a greater amount of effort could be put.

Finally, this post is, what, 14 days old?

 
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"I wouldn't hae wanted to play KS with Tormi gfx, would you?"

I honestly wouldn't care.

 
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Ladders 2 style graphics are clearly the best

 
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19th June, 2010 at 13:59:17 -

@Jon I know it's 14 days old but I felt I had to put in my opinions. I never knew Nifflas considered his graphics lazy, or maybe that's the opinion everyone else had just because his game got so much attention even though he didn't "visibily put effort" in the gfx.

@Adam Now that I re-read what I said, ya I guess it would have charm either way. I was rushing my comment.

 
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^I think Nifflas makes terrible games. He definitely doesn't deserve the praise that he receives.

How many people pirated James games?

3?

You guys look at piracy like the worst thing ever. If you would look at the big picture and use 1/1000th of your brains, you would realize that people who pirate most likely would not buy your games in the first place.

Piracy statistics are fake about 100% of the time. Even in the "non indie" gaming industry the impact of piracy is miniscule compared to the numbers that people and companies flaunt around. Piracy is just something that people blame for their game/software not doing well, when in reality it didn't take off because it is bad, released at a bad time, or wasn't advertised properly for what it is.

In some cases piracy is good.

Metallica would not be around if it wasn't for piracy.
They became big because their music was passed around on P2P networks. Their drummer is a whiny little twat and complained about it all the time, but he would not be where he is standing today if it wasn't for this dreaded Piracy.

You guys need to read up and learn to use those things inside of your heads.

Edited by GamesterXIII

 
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^^ Hahaha ^^

Well Metallica would still be around because they were huge long before that Napster debacle (remember the black album came out years before the internet was even invented).

But yeah Lars is a whiny little twat I gotta' agree. The only good one in the band now is James and even Jason left because they got too soft.

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I don't know much about. But satan sam was the frist mmf game i ever even heard of. After seeing Jame's work I signed up here. Than after learning a little. I went to click team and bought mmf.

That is a testament to just how well jame's promotes things. I myself consider my self lucky to have stumbled across satan sam.



 
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GamesterXIII:
Yeah piracy is a great thing for users because they don't have to pay for whatever they were supposed to pay for, be it a game, an album, a movie etc..
But I fail to see how can piracy be good for the creator ?

Usually you don't download a game/album/movie whatever before you even heard of it, so don't start with the "piracy helps product X get known" because that's utter bullshit.

Yeah most people who pirate games wouldn't buy the game anyway, but what about the other half ?
Now think for a second, if everyone can get your game for free, why should they buy it ?
The sad truth is that today, in the indie gaming market, most of the profits come from people who buy indie games because they want to support their creators.

"Piracy statistics are fake about 100% of the time. "

And how do you know those stats are fake ? You did an investigation yourself?

"Even in the "non indie" gaming industry the impact of piracy is miniscule compared to the numbers that people and companies flaunt around."

Sure, so can you explain me why pc sales have been going downhill for the last 10 years or so? Considering everyone has at least one computer at home while not everyone has a console, it sounds kind of odd that right now consoles games are generating much more money. In the other hand, in the last 10 years the internet boomed, with now pretty much every house having a internet connection and people with unlimited bandwidth also being common. Is that a coincidence?

"Piracy is just something that people blame for their game/software not doing well, when in reality it didn't take off because it is bad, released at a bad time, or wasn't advertised properly for what it is."

Do you seriously believe that ? Not only it's a quite dumb thing to say considering it's big publishers like EA, activision, 2k and so on we're talking about(who know a thing or two about marketing their games), but do you really think big publishers need(or have any reason) to give us gamers any explanations on why a game in particular didn't sell ? I don't recall seeing a publisher saying "game X didn't sell because of piracy", usually they just talk about piracy on the PC platform as a whole as a justification on why they won't support it with new games. And you know, there is a reason why the pc is starting to lag behind.

Oh and that metallica example is as wrong as it can be. Metallica's commercial, critical and overall popularity downfall started in the mid to late 90's, around the time the P2P file sharing networks started getting popular. Metallica were already considered one of the biggest metal acts in the world 15 years earlier.

Edited by Johnny Look

 
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22nd June, 2010 at 15:31:54 -


Originally Posted by Johnny Look
Oh and that metallica example is as wrong as it can be. Metallica's commercial, critical and overall popularity downfall started in the mid to late 90's, around the time the P2P file sharing networks started getting popular. Metallica were already considered one of the biggest metal acts in the world 15 years before.



Also when they stopped making good songs Good luck finding anyone who likes St. Anger or Death Magnetic over the Black Album or their earlier albums.

 
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@Johnny Look

Allow me to restate.

Metallica albums made more sales due to P2P.

"Usually you don't download a game/album/movie whatever before you even heard of it, so don't start with the "piracy helps product X get known" because that's utter bullshit."

Who are you to speak for the millions of people out there? Just because you believe something or wouldn't do it yourself doesn't mean there aren't hundreds, thousands, or millions of people out there that won't. That pretty much defeats the purpose of any product. How do you think hobbies, addictions, obsessions, and trends get started? People don't just say "screw it I've never tried that so I won't!"

There are tons of private torrent sites dedicated to one specific subject (games, music, movies, etc.). Do you think everyone on those websites has heard of every game, movie, or mp3 they have downloaded? No. I'm pretty sure if you've ever emulated anything that you have downloaded a bunch of games that you have never heard of.

"Yeah most people who pirate games wouldn't buy the game anyway, but what about the other half ?"

Other half? The US Government has stated that piracy figures are exaggerated and misleading. The Canadian Government has also stated that the 30 something odd billion dolloars that are lost every year due to piracy are indeed made up. Studies have been conducted and it is said that piracy figures are ten times higher than they should be. In other words that 30 billion immediately drops to 3 billion, which is quite a large drop. Now consider the amount of media that is pirated and also consider the fact that many companies can exaggerate the worth of their products (just an example: a pirated mp3 may be worth $10,000 to the music industry.)

If one in ten people even gave enough of a shit to pirate one of James' games the amount of money he would lose would be minimal due to the price of his games and the amount of people who have purchased his games (which is probably not very high.)

Just FYI most piracy takes place in places where software and movies are far less common. Those are the same people who would never buy your crap in the first place, given the fact that they would probably never have access to it in the first place.

"Now think for a second, if everyone can get your game for free, why should they buy it?"

The same logic can be applied from different angles.

If someone can't afford a game why shouldn't they pirate it? You wouldn't be making a sale anyway.

"Oh well that guy didn't release a demo, theres no way I'm buying that without trying it, so I'll just pirate it instead." - Even if the person promises themselves to buy the game if they like it and they do end up liking it, they may forget about purchasing it altogether or they may just be too lazy to do so.

etc.

"The sad truth is that today, in the indie gaming market, most of the profits come from people who buy indie games because they want to support their creators."

And just where do you pull this information from? Sure there are some obscure games that only profit from a supportive fanbase, but your statement is incorrect. Assault Andy has already destroyed this argument (With plenty of proof!) in an earlier post in this very thread, maybe you should read it.

You saying this is like making another excuse as to why "indie" games don't normally do well. The word (as much as I hate it) "indie" should have little to no bearing on the quality of a product. This is limiting yourself, when you have little to no limits. Why even state that a game is an indie game anyways? Back in the day AOL used to have some KnP games in its library! Do you think 1/1000 people that downloaded them knew they were indie games?

""Piracy statistics are fake about 100% of the time. "

And how do you know those stats are fake ? You did an investigation yourself?"

Read above.

"Sure, so can you explain me why pc sales have been going downhill for the last 10 years or so? Considering everyone has at least one computer at home while not everyone has a console, it sounds kind of odd that right now consoles games are generating much more money. In the other hand, in the last 10 years the internet boomed, with now pretty much every house having a internet connection and people with unlimited bandwidth also being common. Is that a coincidence? "

Almost everything is down at the moment due to the economy (Though I do see that you said in the last 10 years)

Other things include:

Digital Delivery (steam! which has been around for a while(7 years!) now).
and the fact that console games are closer than ever to pc games.
- Today a bunch of games are made specifically for consoles and THEN ported to PC. These ports tend to suck because they weren't engineered for PC originally.
- Buying or building a computer is a fairly large investment in many cases. Please don't give the building vs. buying argument a shot because today there isn't that much of a price difference between then two when compared to in the past. Consoles can be purchased used for $30-$200.

Some examples are
Gears of War
Halo 1, 2
Resident Evil 4

All of these games were built for consoles originally. When ported to PC they just don't play the same unless you are using a controller, which is what they were built for.

PC Piracy is an issue as well, but it is not near as large as companies claim it to be.

Oh by the way . . .Lately PC DRM has been a major issue with PC Gaming as well causing masses of people to not purchase games for pc OR to pirate them.

"Do you seriously believe that ? Not only it's a quite dumb thing to say considering it's big publishers like EA, activision, 2k and so on we're talking about(who know a thing or two about marketing their games), but do you really think big publishers need(or have any reason) to give us gamers any explanations on why a game in particular didn't sell ? I don't recall seeing a publisher saying "game X didn't sell because of piracy", usually they just talk about piracy on the PC platform as a whole as a justification on why they won't support it with new games. And you know, there is a reason why the pc is starting to lag behind. "

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=blames+piracy+for+low+sales&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=


"Oh and that metallica example is as wrong as it can be. Metallica's commercial, critical and overall popularity downfall started in the mid to late 90's, around the time the P2P file sharing networks started getting popular. Metallica were already considered one of the biggest metal acts in the world 15 years earlier."

My bad on that one. Metallica may have already been large, but it made more sales when p2p was getting big.

I think this concludes todays argument.










 
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22nd June, 2010 at 19:18:49 -

This was quite an interesting forum thread until Metallica got mentioned. Then I switched off completely. You ruined it guys!!!

 
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22nd June, 2010 at 19:19:42 -


Originally Posted by GamesterXIII
Who are you to speak for the millions of people out there? Just because you believe something or wouldn't do it yourself doesn't mean there aren't hundreds, thousands, or millions of people out there that won't. That pretty much defeats the purpose of any product. How do you think hobbies, addictions, obsessions, and trends get started? People don't just say "screw it I've never tried that so I won't!"

There are tons of private torrent sites dedicated to one specific subject (games, music, movies, etc.). Do you think everyone on those websites has heard of every game, movie, or mp3 they have downloaded? No. I'm pretty sure if you've ever emulated anything that you have downloaded a bunch of games that you have never heard of.



It's called common sense. Do you download stuff based on it's fancy name? Before I buy a game I read reviews, watch trailers etc...For instance I know some people who would buy a game based on a few screenshots. The same can be said for music albums or movies. People gain interest on them because of the band or the director, and usually that's more than enough for them. Buying is like downloading, something has to spark your interest.
The same goes for hobbies, addictions, obsessions and so on.


Originally Posted by GamesterXIII
The same logic can be applied from different angles.

If someone can't afford a game why shouldn't they pirate it? You wouldn't be making a sale anyway.



Perhaps not, but the creator charges something for the game for a reason. It's not so much about the financial loss, it's about you having access to someone else's hard work without the author's consent.


Originally Posted by GamesterXIII
And just where do you pull this information from? Sure there are some obscure games that only profit from a supportive fanbase, but your statement is incorrect. Assault Andy has already destroyed this argument (With plenty of proof!) in an earlier post in this very thread, maybe you should read it.


And where is that post ? The only post even slightly relevant to the subject was about indie games selling well, but I didn't see a single mention of piracy, or anything remotely related to what I said.


Originally Posted by GamesterXIII
You saying this is like making another excuse as to why "indie" games don't normally do well. The word (as much as I hate it) "indie" should have little to no bearing on the quality of a product. This is limiting yourself, when you have little to no limits. Why even state that a game is an indie game anyways? Back in the day AOL used to have some KnP games in its library! Do you think 1/1000 people that downloaded them knew they were indie games?


Indie=Independent. Not being held under the wing of a publisher, therefore meaning you still have 100% creative freedom. Just because a game is indie doesn't mean it's good, hell it doesn't even mean it's actually different. Those knp games were indie games by today's definition of "indie game". Back then few people gave a crap if it was indie or not, mostly because they weren't all that different. Back then the gaming industry wasn't the millions making (or losing) machine it is now, the investments were smaller and so was the risk.
btw I never said piracy was the main reason indie games don't sell well. But I can assure you, piracy can cause indie developers quite some damage. A good share of them already live slightly above the poverty line, a sudden decrease of sales is usually enough to force them to look for another day job.


Originally Posted by GamesterXIII
Almost everything is down at the moment due to the economy (Though I do see that you said in the last 10 years)

Other things include:

Digital Delivery (steam! which has been around for a while(7 years!) now).
and the fact that console games are closer than ever to pc games.
- Today a bunch of games are made specifically for consoles and THEN ported to PC. These ports tend to suck because they weren't engineered for PC originally.
- Buying or building a computer is a fairly large investment in many cases. Please don't give the building vs. buying argument a shot because today there isn't that much of a price difference between then two when compared to in the past. Consoles can be purchased used for $30-$200.

Some examples are
Gears of War
Halo 1, 2
Resident Evil 4

All of these games were built for consoles originally. When ported to PC they just don't play the same unless you are using a controller, which is what they were built for.

PC Piracy is an issue as well, but it is not near as large as companies claim it to be.

Oh by the way . . .Lately PC DRM has been a major issue with PC Gaming as well causing masses of people to not purchase games for pc OR to pirate them.



First off, the current economic situation doesn't justify why there aren't as many pc games but there are more console games.

Second, digital delivery is supposed to be a good thing. Actually if I'm not mistaken most pc games sales come from steam and other digital distribution channels.

Third, those games, even though badly ported, are still some of the best games out there for the pc, so having them for the pc is still a good thing, even if they aren't as good as the consoles counterpart.
In addition, there is a reason why those games are only released one year or more after the original consoles release. It's not a technical matter, like I read somewhere one of the reasons is to prevent people from pirating the pc version which would in turn affect the console sales.It's also one of the reasons why usually the pc versions are only announced shortly before their release.

Forth, that "pcs are expensive and need to be upgraded" argument is not valid because pc games are usually much cheaper than console games and a decent to low end pc usually doesn't cost much more than a recently released console and lasts as much or even for longer.


Originally Posted by GamesterXIII
Oh by the way . . .Lately PC DRM has been a major issue with PC Gaming as well causing masses of people to not purchase games for pc OR to pirate them.



I'm pretty sure that if it didn't have drm it would be pirated anyway. In addition if publishers had to resort to such desperate measures that's because piracy really is a problem.




Google usually indexes the latest news/articles first in the search lists. PC piracy not being something new at all, it would be expectable to see more complaints directed at the piracy in the consoles, which is something while not entirely new, seems to be picking up pace quite quickly.


Originally Posted by GamesterXIII
Metallica albums made more sales due to P2P.



I don't get it, are you actually implying they wouldn't have made as many sales if it wasn't for people pirating their albums?


Originally Posted by GamesterXIII
My bad on that one. Metallica may have already been large, but it made more sales when p2p was getting big.



That's still wrong. My point was exactly the opposite, I'm not saying p2p ruined the sales (I think that happened mostly because like phredreeke said their last albums weren't as good as their earlier stuff) but it's pretty damn obvious p2p didn't help at all.


Anyway, all this and you still haven't answered the main question: How can piracy be a good thing ?
Even if the piracy stats really are exaggerated, the damage caused is undeniable. I never cared for stats of any kind since they can be easily adulterated for whatever purpose, but I do care about the real effects of piracy.
If you look at a recent pc releases list and compare with any other console you'll see the problem is real and the piracy really is the main cause.

 
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22nd June, 2010 at 22:07:59 -

I don't think that piracy is the sole reason why people aren't buying PC games. Laptops are becoming much more popular nowadays, and they are often not suitable for gaming. Gamers are likely to own a console anyway, and most games will run better on a console (which it has been optimized for) than on an average computer.

Also, people buy video game consoles to play games. But computers are bought for all kinds of reasons so you can't really say that PC game sales should be higher just because there are more computers sold.

Anyone considered the possibility that he just got bored making the game, and is just using piracy as an excuse to drop it?

 
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22nd June, 2010 at 22:52:05 -

He's still working on all the games though. He's finishing Lunnye 2 right now and will go on to Tormishire later.

 
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22nd June, 2010 at 23:05:29 -

You mean he said "Guys, you're not getting Satan Sam 2 or Tormishire because people pirated the Wake" then "lol you're getting Tormishire anyway"? Publicity stunt?

 
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23rd June, 2010 at 00:31:02 -

I think this is a really good discussion and I tend to agree a lot with what GamesterXIII has said. Personally I don't think piracy really has much effect at all on game sales. I think that generally speaking, if a game is good it will get sales.

To support this, here's an article by 2D Boy on piracy ( World of Goo ): http://2dboy.com/2008/11/13/90/

2D Boy came up with an interesting statistic from preventing piracy, "preventing 1000 piracy attempts results in only a single additional sale. this supports our intuitive assessment that people who pirate our game aren't people who would have purchased it had they not been able to get it without paying."

And here's another interesting read by Introversion Software (Uplink, Darwinia) on Piracy and DRM: ( http://forums.introversion.co.uk/introversion/viewtopic.php?t=1046 )


 
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VIP MemberWii OwnerTDC Chat Super UserI am an April FoolSSBB 3265-4741-0937ACCF 3051-1173-8012360 Owner
23rd June, 2010 at 00:40:58 -


Originally Posted by Phredreeke
You mean he said "Guys, you're not getting Satan Sam 2 or Tormishire because people pirated the Wake" then "lol you're getting Tormishire anyway"? Publicity stunt?


No. He never said those things. From here: http://satansam.co.uk/blog/?p=1118

Pointing the finger of blame
So the reason why we're stopping the games thing is down to piracy.


Here, "the games thing" refers to the group known as Boss Baddie, not making games entirely, as supported later:

Pointing the finger of blame
Hopefully nothing gets in the way of Lunnye 2 now and we can all end on a jolly, though horrifying surreal note.


As well as in a previous post: http://satansam.co.uk/blog/?p=1111

It's all winding down a bit
We're winding down here at Boss Baddie, it's been fun but both me and Piney are moving onto bigger and better things.[...]The doors aren't being closed though as we're actively working on one big project.



 
Sandwich Time!Whoo!

JoyCheck & KeyCheck Widgets
For easy implementation of customizable joystick and keyboard controls.
http://www.create-games.com/download.asp?id=8364

Johnny Look

One Happy Dude

Registered
  14/05/2006
Points
  2942

VIP Member
23rd June, 2010 at 02:51:22 -


Originally Posted by Assault Andy
I think this is a really good discussion and I tend to agree a lot with what GamesterXIII has said. Personally I don't think piracy really has much effect at all on game sales. I think that generally speaking, if a game is good it will get sales.

To support this, here's an article by 2D Boy on piracy ( World of Goo ): http://2dboy.com/2008/11/13/90/

2D Boy came up with an interesting statistic from preventing piracy, "preventing 1000 piracy attempts results in only a single additional sale. this supports our intuitive assessment that people who pirate our game aren't people who would have purchased it had they not been able to get it without paying."

And here's another interesting read by Introversion Software (Uplink, Darwinia) on Piracy and DRM: ( http://forums.introversion.co.uk/introversion/viewtopic.php?t=1046 )



I think I might be missing something. Sales went up 70% and then 13%, which means that with the anti-piracy measures, the sales increased in a total of around 83%. 1000*83%=830 which means their sales almost doubled; for each 1000 sales they got 830 more, and not one more like the article states.
By the way, the game is a casual game that costs 20$. I find it rather surprising that they had a 92% piracy rate when a good share of casual gamers are older people and/or woman who usually aren't tech savy, and therefore probably never heard of torrents, p2p, and so on. On the other hand I find the price to be way to high for a game that while very polished, it's little more than a breakout meet-space invaders game, so I believe it's more prone to be pirated than if it would cost 15$ or 10$.

That post from the introversion guy was really interesting indeed; He made several good points on the DRM subject, but specially on alternative anti-piracy measures.

Phredreeke:
I'm not sure I said this before, but I don't think piracy is PC's only problem. Definitely not. I do believe however it's one of the biggest ones, if not the biggest one.
The pc had brighter days, that's a fact. Around 10 years ago the PC was the gaming platform that had the most games released per month by far, so the argument that the PC is going down because it's not a gaming platform is wrong.

"Also, people buy video game consoles to play games. But computers are bought for all kinds of reasons so you can't really say that PC game sales should be higher just because there are more computers sold. "

This article is one year old but is still up to date: http://www.gamespot.com/news/6214598.html
In the us there are 32.9 million console owners, while there are 67.3 million PC gamers. Of course these stats are probably not 100% accurate but it's still food for thought when you consider that nowadays console games are generating much more money.

 
n/a

Phredreeke

Don't listen to this idiot

Registered
  03/08/2002
Points
  4504

You've Been Circy'd!VIP MemberPS3 Owner
23rd June, 2010 at 11:11:01 -


Originally Posted by Johnny Look

I think I might be missing something. Sales went up 70% and then 13%, which means that with the anti-piracy measures, the sales increased in a total of around 83%. 1000*83%=830 which means their sales almost doubled; for each 1000 sales they got 830 more, and not one more like the article states.



Where did you get those stats from?

Edit: Ok, I found it (link on 2DBoy site) It's very weirdly worded. I'll try to explain later if I can figure it out.

Edited by Phredreeke

 
- Ok, you must admit that was the most creative cussing this site have ever seen -

Make some more box arts damnit!
http://create-games.com/forum_post.asp?id=285363
   

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