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22nd June, 2010 at 05:41:18 -

I don't know much about. But satan sam was the frist mmf game i ever even heard of. After seeing Jame's work I signed up here. Than after learning a little. I went to click team and bought mmf.

That is a testament to just how well jame's promotes things. I myself consider my self lucky to have stumbled across satan sam.



 
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Johnny Look

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22nd June, 2010 at 15:06:59 -

GamesterXIII:
Yeah piracy is a great thing for users because they don't have to pay for whatever they were supposed to pay for, be it a game, an album, a movie etc..
But I fail to see how can piracy be good for the creator ?

Usually you don't download a game/album/movie whatever before you even heard of it, so don't start with the "piracy helps product X get known" because that's utter bullshit.

Yeah most people who pirate games wouldn't buy the game anyway, but what about the other half ?
Now think for a second, if everyone can get your game for free, why should they buy it ?
The sad truth is that today, in the indie gaming market, most of the profits come from people who buy indie games because they want to support their creators.

"Piracy statistics are fake about 100% of the time. "

And how do you know those stats are fake ? You did an investigation yourself?

"Even in the "non indie" gaming industry the impact of piracy is miniscule compared to the numbers that people and companies flaunt around."

Sure, so can you explain me why pc sales have been going downhill for the last 10 years or so? Considering everyone has at least one computer at home while not everyone has a console, it sounds kind of odd that right now consoles games are generating much more money. In the other hand, in the last 10 years the internet boomed, with now pretty much every house having a internet connection and people with unlimited bandwidth also being common. Is that a coincidence?

"Piracy is just something that people blame for their game/software not doing well, when in reality it didn't take off because it is bad, released at a bad time, or wasn't advertised properly for what it is."

Do you seriously believe that ? Not only it's a quite dumb thing to say considering it's big publishers like EA, activision, 2k and so on we're talking about(who know a thing or two about marketing their games), but do you really think big publishers need(or have any reason) to give us gamers any explanations on why a game in particular didn't sell ? I don't recall seeing a publisher saying "game X didn't sell because of piracy", usually they just talk about piracy on the PC platform as a whole as a justification on why they won't support it with new games. And you know, there is a reason why the pc is starting to lag behind.

Oh and that metallica example is as wrong as it can be. Metallica's commercial, critical and overall popularity downfall started in the mid to late 90's, around the time the P2P file sharing networks started getting popular. Metallica were already considered one of the biggest metal acts in the world 15 years earlier.

Edited by Johnny Look

 
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22nd June, 2010 at 15:31:54 -


Originally Posted by Johnny Look
Oh and that metallica example is as wrong as it can be. Metallica's commercial, critical and overall popularity downfall started in the mid to late 90's, around the time the P2P file sharing networks started getting popular. Metallica were already considered one of the biggest metal acts in the world 15 years before.



Also when they stopped making good songs Good luck finding anyone who likes St. Anger or Death Magnetic over the Black Album or their earlier albums.

 
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22nd June, 2010 at 17:13:41 -

@Johnny Look

Allow me to restate.

Metallica albums made more sales due to P2P.

"Usually you don't download a game/album/movie whatever before you even heard of it, so don't start with the "piracy helps product X get known" because that's utter bullshit."

Who are you to speak for the millions of people out there? Just because you believe something or wouldn't do it yourself doesn't mean there aren't hundreds, thousands, or millions of people out there that won't. That pretty much defeats the purpose of any product. How do you think hobbies, addictions, obsessions, and trends get started? People don't just say "screw it I've never tried that so I won't!"

There are tons of private torrent sites dedicated to one specific subject (games, music, movies, etc.). Do you think everyone on those websites has heard of every game, movie, or mp3 they have downloaded? No. I'm pretty sure if you've ever emulated anything that you have downloaded a bunch of games that you have never heard of.

"Yeah most people who pirate games wouldn't buy the game anyway, but what about the other half ?"

Other half? The US Government has stated that piracy figures are exaggerated and misleading. The Canadian Government has also stated that the 30 something odd billion dolloars that are lost every year due to piracy are indeed made up. Studies have been conducted and it is said that piracy figures are ten times higher than they should be. In other words that 30 billion immediately drops to 3 billion, which is quite a large drop. Now consider the amount of media that is pirated and also consider the fact that many companies can exaggerate the worth of their products (just an example: a pirated mp3 may be worth $10,000 to the music industry.)

If one in ten people even gave enough of a shit to pirate one of James' games the amount of money he would lose would be minimal due to the price of his games and the amount of people who have purchased his games (which is probably not very high.)

Just FYI most piracy takes place in places where software and movies are far less common. Those are the same people who would never buy your crap in the first place, given the fact that they would probably never have access to it in the first place.

"Now think for a second, if everyone can get your game for free, why should they buy it?"

The same logic can be applied from different angles.

If someone can't afford a game why shouldn't they pirate it? You wouldn't be making a sale anyway.

"Oh well that guy didn't release a demo, theres no way I'm buying that without trying it, so I'll just pirate it instead." - Even if the person promises themselves to buy the game if they like it and they do end up liking it, they may forget about purchasing it altogether or they may just be too lazy to do so.

etc.

"The sad truth is that today, in the indie gaming market, most of the profits come from people who buy indie games because they want to support their creators."

And just where do you pull this information from? Sure there are some obscure games that only profit from a supportive fanbase, but your statement is incorrect. Assault Andy has already destroyed this argument (With plenty of proof!) in an earlier post in this very thread, maybe you should read it.

You saying this is like making another excuse as to why "indie" games don't normally do well. The word (as much as I hate it) "indie" should have little to no bearing on the quality of a product. This is limiting yourself, when you have little to no limits. Why even state that a game is an indie game anyways? Back in the day AOL used to have some KnP games in its library! Do you think 1/1000 people that downloaded them knew they were indie games?

""Piracy statistics are fake about 100% of the time. "

And how do you know those stats are fake ? You did an investigation yourself?"

Read above.

"Sure, so can you explain me why pc sales have been going downhill for the last 10 years or so? Considering everyone has at least one computer at home while not everyone has a console, it sounds kind of odd that right now consoles games are generating much more money. In the other hand, in the last 10 years the internet boomed, with now pretty much every house having a internet connection and people with unlimited bandwidth also being common. Is that a coincidence? "

Almost everything is down at the moment due to the economy (Though I do see that you said in the last 10 years)

Other things include:

Digital Delivery (steam! which has been around for a while(7 years!) now).
and the fact that console games are closer than ever to pc games.
- Today a bunch of games are made specifically for consoles and THEN ported to PC. These ports tend to suck because they weren't engineered for PC originally.
- Buying or building a computer is a fairly large investment in many cases. Please don't give the building vs. buying argument a shot because today there isn't that much of a price difference between then two when compared to in the past. Consoles can be purchased used for $30-$200.

Some examples are
Gears of War
Halo 1, 2
Resident Evil 4

All of these games were built for consoles originally. When ported to PC they just don't play the same unless you are using a controller, which is what they were built for.

PC Piracy is an issue as well, but it is not near as large as companies claim it to be.

Oh by the way . . .Lately PC DRM has been a major issue with PC Gaming as well causing masses of people to not purchase games for pc OR to pirate them.

"Do you seriously believe that ? Not only it's a quite dumb thing to say considering it's big publishers like EA, activision, 2k and so on we're talking about(who know a thing or two about marketing their games), but do you really think big publishers need(or have any reason) to give us gamers any explanations on why a game in particular didn't sell ? I don't recall seeing a publisher saying "game X didn't sell because of piracy", usually they just talk about piracy on the PC platform as a whole as a justification on why they won't support it with new games. And you know, there is a reason why the pc is starting to lag behind. "

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=blames+piracy+for+low+sales&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=


"Oh and that metallica example is as wrong as it can be. Metallica's commercial, critical and overall popularity downfall started in the mid to late 90's, around the time the P2P file sharing networks started getting popular. Metallica were already considered one of the biggest metal acts in the world 15 years earlier."

My bad on that one. Metallica may have already been large, but it made more sales when p2p was getting big.

I think this concludes todays argument.










 
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22nd June, 2010 at 19:18:49 -

This was quite an interesting forum thread until Metallica got mentioned. Then I switched off completely. You ruined it guys!!!

 
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Johnny Look

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22nd June, 2010 at 19:19:42 -


Originally Posted by GamesterXIII
Who are you to speak for the millions of people out there? Just because you believe something or wouldn't do it yourself doesn't mean there aren't hundreds, thousands, or millions of people out there that won't. That pretty much defeats the purpose of any product. How do you think hobbies, addictions, obsessions, and trends get started? People don't just say "screw it I've never tried that so I won't!"

There are tons of private torrent sites dedicated to one specific subject (games, music, movies, etc.). Do you think everyone on those websites has heard of every game, movie, or mp3 they have downloaded? No. I'm pretty sure if you've ever emulated anything that you have downloaded a bunch of games that you have never heard of.



It's called common sense. Do you download stuff based on it's fancy name? Before I buy a game I read reviews, watch trailers etc...For instance I know some people who would buy a game based on a few screenshots. The same can be said for music albums or movies. People gain interest on them because of the band or the director, and usually that's more than enough for them. Buying is like downloading, something has to spark your interest.
The same goes for hobbies, addictions, obsessions and so on.


Originally Posted by GamesterXIII
The same logic can be applied from different angles.

If someone can't afford a game why shouldn't they pirate it? You wouldn't be making a sale anyway.



Perhaps not, but the creator charges something for the game for a reason. It's not so much about the financial loss, it's about you having access to someone else's hard work without the author's consent.


Originally Posted by GamesterXIII
And just where do you pull this information from? Sure there are some obscure games that only profit from a supportive fanbase, but your statement is incorrect. Assault Andy has already destroyed this argument (With plenty of proof!) in an earlier post in this very thread, maybe you should read it.


And where is that post ? The only post even slightly relevant to the subject was about indie games selling well, but I didn't see a single mention of piracy, or anything remotely related to what I said.


Originally Posted by GamesterXIII
You saying this is like making another excuse as to why "indie" games don't normally do well. The word (as much as I hate it) "indie" should have little to no bearing on the quality of a product. This is limiting yourself, when you have little to no limits. Why even state that a game is an indie game anyways? Back in the day AOL used to have some KnP games in its library! Do you think 1/1000 people that downloaded them knew they were indie games?


Indie=Independent. Not being held under the wing of a publisher, therefore meaning you still have 100% creative freedom. Just because a game is indie doesn't mean it's good, hell it doesn't even mean it's actually different. Those knp games were indie games by today's definition of "indie game". Back then few people gave a crap if it was indie or not, mostly because they weren't all that different. Back then the gaming industry wasn't the millions making (or losing) machine it is now, the investments were smaller and so was the risk.
btw I never said piracy was the main reason indie games don't sell well. But I can assure you, piracy can cause indie developers quite some damage. A good share of them already live slightly above the poverty line, a sudden decrease of sales is usually enough to force them to look for another day job.


Originally Posted by GamesterXIII
Almost everything is down at the moment due to the economy (Though I do see that you said in the last 10 years)

Other things include:

Digital Delivery (steam! which has been around for a while(7 years!) now).
and the fact that console games are closer than ever to pc games.
- Today a bunch of games are made specifically for consoles and THEN ported to PC. These ports tend to suck because they weren't engineered for PC originally.
- Buying or building a computer is a fairly large investment in many cases. Please don't give the building vs. buying argument a shot because today there isn't that much of a price difference between then two when compared to in the past. Consoles can be purchased used for $30-$200.

Some examples are
Gears of War
Halo 1, 2
Resident Evil 4

All of these games were built for consoles originally. When ported to PC they just don't play the same unless you are using a controller, which is what they were built for.

PC Piracy is an issue as well, but it is not near as large as companies claim it to be.

Oh by the way . . .Lately PC DRM has been a major issue with PC Gaming as well causing masses of people to not purchase games for pc OR to pirate them.



First off, the current economic situation doesn't justify why there aren't as many pc games but there are more console games.

Second, digital delivery is supposed to be a good thing. Actually if I'm not mistaken most pc games sales come from steam and other digital distribution channels.

Third, those games, even though badly ported, are still some of the best games out there for the pc, so having them for the pc is still a good thing, even if they aren't as good as the consoles counterpart.
In addition, there is a reason why those games are only released one year or more after the original consoles release. It's not a technical matter, like I read somewhere one of the reasons is to prevent people from pirating the pc version which would in turn affect the console sales.It's also one of the reasons why usually the pc versions are only announced shortly before their release.

Forth, that "pcs are expensive and need to be upgraded" argument is not valid because pc games are usually much cheaper than console games and a decent to low end pc usually doesn't cost much more than a recently released console and lasts as much or even for longer.


Originally Posted by GamesterXIII
Oh by the way . . .Lately PC DRM has been a major issue with PC Gaming as well causing masses of people to not purchase games for pc OR to pirate them.



I'm pretty sure that if it didn't have drm it would be pirated anyway. In addition if publishers had to resort to such desperate measures that's because piracy really is a problem.




Google usually indexes the latest news/articles first in the search lists. PC piracy not being something new at all, it would be expectable to see more complaints directed at the piracy in the consoles, which is something while not entirely new, seems to be picking up pace quite quickly.


Originally Posted by GamesterXIII
Metallica albums made more sales due to P2P.



I don't get it, are you actually implying they wouldn't have made as many sales if it wasn't for people pirating their albums?


Originally Posted by GamesterXIII
My bad on that one. Metallica may have already been large, but it made more sales when p2p was getting big.



That's still wrong. My point was exactly the opposite, I'm not saying p2p ruined the sales (I think that happened mostly because like phredreeke said their last albums weren't as good as their earlier stuff) but it's pretty damn obvious p2p didn't help at all.


Anyway, all this and you still haven't answered the main question: How can piracy be a good thing ?
Even if the piracy stats really are exaggerated, the damage caused is undeniable. I never cared for stats of any kind since they can be easily adulterated for whatever purpose, but I do care about the real effects of piracy.
If you look at a recent pc releases list and compare with any other console you'll see the problem is real and the piracy really is the main cause.

 
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22nd June, 2010 at 22:07:59 -

I don't think that piracy is the sole reason why people aren't buying PC games. Laptops are becoming much more popular nowadays, and they are often not suitable for gaming. Gamers are likely to own a console anyway, and most games will run better on a console (which it has been optimized for) than on an average computer.

Also, people buy video game consoles to play games. But computers are bought for all kinds of reasons so you can't really say that PC game sales should be higher just because there are more computers sold.

Anyone considered the possibility that he just got bored making the game, and is just using piracy as an excuse to drop it?

 
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22nd June, 2010 at 22:52:05 -

He's still working on all the games though. He's finishing Lunnye 2 right now and will go on to Tormishire later.

 
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22nd June, 2010 at 23:05:29 -

You mean he said "Guys, you're not getting Satan Sam 2 or Tormishire because people pirated the Wake" then "lol you're getting Tormishire anyway"? Publicity stunt?

 
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23rd June, 2010 at 00:31:02 -

I think this is a really good discussion and I tend to agree a lot with what GamesterXIII has said. Personally I don't think piracy really has much effect at all on game sales. I think that generally speaking, if a game is good it will get sales.

To support this, here's an article by 2D Boy on piracy ( World of Goo ): http://2dboy.com/2008/11/13/90/

2D Boy came up with an interesting statistic from preventing piracy, "preventing 1000 piracy attempts results in only a single additional sale. this supports our intuitive assessment that people who pirate our game aren't people who would have purchased it had they not been able to get it without paying."

And here's another interesting read by Introversion Software (Uplink, Darwinia) on Piracy and DRM: ( http://forums.introversion.co.uk/introversion/viewtopic.php?t=1046 )


 
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23rd June, 2010 at 00:40:58 -


Originally Posted by Phredreeke
You mean he said "Guys, you're not getting Satan Sam 2 or Tormishire because people pirated the Wake" then "lol you're getting Tormishire anyway"? Publicity stunt?


No. He never said those things. From here: http://satansam.co.uk/blog/?p=1118

Pointing the finger of blame
So the reason why we're stopping the games thing is down to piracy.


Here, "the games thing" refers to the group known as Boss Baddie, not making games entirely, as supported later:

Pointing the finger of blame
Hopefully nothing gets in the way of Lunnye 2 now and we can all end on a jolly, though horrifying surreal note.


As well as in a previous post: http://satansam.co.uk/blog/?p=1111

It's all winding down a bit
We're winding down here at Boss Baddie, it's been fun but both me and Piney are moving onto bigger and better things.[...]The doors aren't being closed though as we're actively working on one big project.



 
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23rd June, 2010 at 02:51:22 -


Originally Posted by Assault Andy
I think this is a really good discussion and I tend to agree a lot with what GamesterXIII has said. Personally I don't think piracy really has much effect at all on game sales. I think that generally speaking, if a game is good it will get sales.

To support this, here's an article by 2D Boy on piracy ( World of Goo ): http://2dboy.com/2008/11/13/90/

2D Boy came up with an interesting statistic from preventing piracy, "preventing 1000 piracy attempts results in only a single additional sale. this supports our intuitive assessment that people who pirate our game aren't people who would have purchased it had they not been able to get it without paying."

And here's another interesting read by Introversion Software (Uplink, Darwinia) on Piracy and DRM: ( http://forums.introversion.co.uk/introversion/viewtopic.php?t=1046 )



I think I might be missing something. Sales went up 70% and then 13%, which means that with the anti-piracy measures, the sales increased in a total of around 83%. 1000*83%=830 which means their sales almost doubled; for each 1000 sales they got 830 more, and not one more like the article states.
By the way, the game is a casual game that costs 20$. I find it rather surprising that they had a 92% piracy rate when a good share of casual gamers are older people and/or woman who usually aren't tech savy, and therefore probably never heard of torrents, p2p, and so on. On the other hand I find the price to be way to high for a game that while very polished, it's little more than a breakout meet-space invaders game, so I believe it's more prone to be pirated than if it would cost 15$ or 10$.

That post from the introversion guy was really interesting indeed; He made several good points on the DRM subject, but specially on alternative anti-piracy measures.

Phredreeke:
I'm not sure I said this before, but I don't think piracy is PC's only problem. Definitely not. I do believe however it's one of the biggest ones, if not the biggest one.
The pc had brighter days, that's a fact. Around 10 years ago the PC was the gaming platform that had the most games released per month by far, so the argument that the PC is going down because it's not a gaming platform is wrong.

"Also, people buy video game consoles to play games. But computers are bought for all kinds of reasons so you can't really say that PC game sales should be higher just because there are more computers sold. "

This article is one year old but is still up to date: http://www.gamespot.com/news/6214598.html
In the us there are 32.9 million console owners, while there are 67.3 million PC gamers. Of course these stats are probably not 100% accurate but it's still food for thought when you consider that nowadays console games are generating much more money.

 
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23rd June, 2010 at 11:11:01 -


Originally Posted by Johnny Look

I think I might be missing something. Sales went up 70% and then 13%, which means that with the anti-piracy measures, the sales increased in a total of around 83%. 1000*83%=830 which means their sales almost doubled; for each 1000 sales they got 830 more, and not one more like the article states.



Where did you get those stats from?

Edit: Ok, I found it (link on 2DBoy site) It's very weirdly worded. I'll try to explain later if I can figure it out.

Edited by Phredreeke

 
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