Stay on topic Adam, every single post you've made so far in this thread has been either a derail, or an extension to a derail. You've contributed nothing to the discussion thus far. Responding to this will only further prove my point.
As far as TDC's decline, I think it's just suffering from change. Have you ever watched an old TV show and during a change of season, the pace changed so that it could keep going, but the change of pace was too different and you didn't really like the way it was going. You knew it would happen eventually but didn't want it to, either because actors grew to old or the story came to dead ends. I think TDC's growth is comparable to that. At least from my point of view. However I agree with almost everything said so far too. It's all contributing to the problem.
TDC will probably never out right die, but we've fallen into a rut. We've become less of a site of booming creativity, and more of just a gathering place for people with the single interest of kliking, but yet we rarely truly seem to interact off that interest. We just sort of... interact.
Perhaps the site needs to take a few steps back and rather than add features, try to re-arrange the site itself to help encourage kliking itself. Think about it, the downloads, articles, projects, reviews, all of that stuff is just a little text link at the top. Maybe we should have a more intuitive design that encourages exploration of these parts of the site.
Maybe we could pull off something of maybe like an automatic 'featured' bar that displays new games and games with a lower average of feedback, both in the same place. That might help focus attention and encourage people to want to contribute more cause they'll get more attention. And it has to use screenshots, none of this text stuff. The side bar on the far right seems completely useless to me. I never use it.
I didn't really bother with reading this whole thing, but I think it may just be the whole pro-click idea we got going here. It is called the Daily Click and we have a nice big picture of Mitch right there on the top. Maybe just by changing the name and the idea that its just a game making community instead of just click on the first few seconds you look at it would attract more people. My two cents.
No need to instigate even further, Brandon. It's not fair to tell someone that they are proving a point solely by responding to what you say.
Call me stubborn, but I still think the name change is a bad idea. To an outsider, doesn't "Click" mean the noise a mouse button makes? Changing the name just gets rid of a catchy title and arguably the site's history. I guess if you want to wipe the slate clean...
I'm all for our current acceptance of games from any development tool, but expecting TDC to focus on all creation software equally is like expecting a banana to turn into an orange. Or even closer... it would be like inviting teenagers to senior bingo night and expecting them to stay until there are people of all ages in equal amounts coming every night. At least in this incarnation of the site.
I didn't read the whole thing either, since I went to TDC to get a glance before going to class. A lot of it seems to be people blaming each other anyway
I think the community has always been non-constructive. It's been a lot worse, where people were badly flamed for making bad games. Today, people just politely ignore a bad game. "meh" is a lot better than "This game suck0rs! You're a noob! I can make a better game in 2 hours! 0 stars for being a retard!!" Most of those people have moved to TK, and then to TIGSource.
I think TDC's improving slowly, as is the quality of the Click Community. A lot of people have moved on to Construct, and TDC is seen as anti-Construct since that little fight when Ashley donated to TDC. So, many Construct makers are ignoring TDC. Game Maker has always been a competitor to MMF2, but it's always been people moving from GM to MMF, not the other way.
There's also a few moving on to console. I don't really see many good game development communities popping up, which is why there's still a lot on TDC.
I think a lot of people have just grown older and better. I'm moving on to writing operating systems and speech modification tools, and not games anymore. Some old klikers have full time jobs, maybe making games, maybe graphics, and they're just not contributing to the community. There's a few, like steve, who do make great games for a living. They're too busy on their own to actually hang around and chat, but even when steve posts a game here, people just go all "oh, i didn't try it, but i'd like it more if it was free".
There's also more pressure on not releasing a game unless it's really good. I mean, quality has been top notch lately, with games like Duel Toys, and heck, much of the projects, but projects aren't getting finished. And after a certain level, MMF2 actively works against you. It goes against common computer science wisdom. MMF gets more difficult to debug with more code, whereas with C, it's just as easy to debug 200 thousand lines of code as it is to debug 300 thousand. So, everyone's aiming for bigger projects, but never complete.
And as I predicted a few years back, the new game making people aren't moving to MMF2. There's no publicity on it, and a lot of other more cost-efficient game making tools. Nobody's going to fork out a lot of money for MMF2, when say, Construct is superior and GM has a bigger community.
New people go in, old people leave. That's how every community is. It's just that new people aren't entering TDC or Click any more.
So, I guess.. nothing really helps. Facelifts won't do much except help old members.. although the site is very outdated, seeing how we can't even make hyperlinks in posts. The best we can do is be nicer to everyone and make better games. I'd have left this ship a long time back if I wasn't an admin. It's a nice place to hang out, but TDC and Gamebuilder seem more dedicated to stealing each other's customer base rather than encouraging new members to join the community.
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.
Originally Posted by nim I don't think reviving the community has much to do with the quality of games being released. On the contrary, we've had more professional games than ever in the last few years: Knytt, Noitu Love, Chalk, Bonesaw (etc) but this community still feels like a smoldering campfire.
That might actually be a deterrent, as people may feel discouraged to release game that would be viewed infavourably.
Hmm, good point. Perhaps as games like those above are celebrated, the more reluctant some people are to make games for fear of not meeting the standards. This can't be helped.
I wonder if a way to fix that would be more beginner oriented sites. Sites that are smaller so everyone feels a bit more obligated to play everyone else's games. TDC is very open to newcomers, but newcomers can get kind of lost in the crowd.
Muz, this could just be my experience but I don't know a single person who has switched from Game Maker to MMF. On the other hand - Derek Yu and xerus switched to GM and Konjak now uses Construct as far as I know.
One thing that has always bothered me is Clickteam's marketing.
I was introduced to K&P when I saw the K&P Gamepack CD in a game shop. It was £5 but you couldn't save, so I upgraded. A few years later, I saw a magazine ad for The Games Factory and bought it at PC World. Since then I've been bought MMF1.5 and MMF2 directly from Clickteam.
It's the complete lack of advertising that gets me now. I understand that marketing has changed a lot since 1996 (I'm surprised that game magazines still exist!) but Clickteam don't seem to be trying very hard to get MMF out there. I think the education approach is working financially for them, though. When I compare YoYoGames' image to Clickteam's image - that is, how their website looks on the first page - there's no doubt which company, and probably which community, looks more fun to be a part of.
Jeff said that Clickteam's new users (forum registrations) in 2009 was much more than in 2008 (it's true!) so obviously Clickteam's products are finding a way out there. So.. what's going on here, on this site?
Assault Andy Administrator
I make other people create vaporware
Registered 29/07/2002
Points 5686
29th April, 2010 at 04:49:35 -
I posted a simliar idea a while ago when this topic came up, but here it is again:
I think people need to make teams and make more games.
Back in "the old days" there were lots of click groups such as Faind, BlackEye Software, etc. and you just don't really see them anymore. It seems everyone used to be in some sort of Clicker group, pumping out games. Being in a group is really cool because then you have artists and programmers matched together, instead of trying to do everything themselves. Being in a group allows you to motivate each other and bounce around ideas really quickly.
A few months back I sent a message to Jess Bowers, because I liked his artwork and since then we've helped each other out enormously. We made Zday20 together and we've both worked on Captain Plokey, all because I sent him a message and offered to help him out on his Plokey engine.
So what I'm saying is, I think programmers need to find artists and artists need to find programmers... then get making some games!
Alternatively, maybe we should start a "buddy" system, where experienced coders get paired with inexperienced MMF coders and help them out, teaching them some new things. The same could be done with artists
If anyone wants me to help them out with coding, I'd be more than happy to.
I've been working with quite a few people on various game projects.
My current project is huge right now, and prolly won't be finished for another year, but I have a lot of people helping. Most aren't from this site though.
I miss those old game making groups too. V-real, and fallen angle were my favorites.
I'm alive and making games, it's just that school is really taking up a lot of time. I think when summer rolls around this place will be more active. AT least I'll be around more often.
Originally Posted by Assault Andy I posted a simliar idea a while ago when this topic came up, but here it is again:
I think people need to make teams and make more games.
Back in "the old days" there were lots of click groups such as Faind, BlackEye Software, etc. and you just don't really see them anymore. It seems everyone used to be in some sort of Clicker group, pumping out games. Being in a group is really cool because then you have artists and programmers matched together, instead of trying to do everything themselves. Being in a group allows you to motivate each other and bounce around ideas really quickly.
A few months back I sent a message to Jess Bowers, because I liked his artwork and since then we've helped each other out enormously. We made Zday20 together and we've both worked on Captain Plokey, all because I sent him a message and offered to help him out on his Plokey engine.
So what I'm saying is, I think programmers need to find artists and artists need to find programmers... then get making some games!
Alternatively, maybe we should start a "buddy" system, where experienced coders get paired with inexperienced MMF coders and help them out, teaching them some new things. The same could be done with artists
If anyone wants me to help them out with coding, I'd be more than happy to.
This is exactly the sort of idea that TDC needs. People shouldn't be afraid to ask for help on here, however I fear that far too many people are. I for one don't like asking for help too much as I have been here for so long i should have a decent idea how to code the things I need to do. Truth be told, I don't. I make more applications for work and other people than I do games. The applications I make are generally well accepted and work very well. this is where I excel when using MMF2.
When it comes to games I get frustrated very quickly both by my coding and my artistic abilities. Being able to request a bit of help every now and then would be great.
One idea to help integrate this would be to actually put the points system to use here and use them to "pay" other members for their help.
For example:
I need a graphics artist to draw me an active object with each of its directions filled with one frame.
Each direction must show a different picture.
I also need a set of backdrops drawing with a perception of depth.
Please see attached images for examples.
I will pay the artist in question X points upon completion of their work.
If an artisit then decided to take up the project they could post a reply to it stating that they would do it and then when the work was done they could post a further reply with a link to the files.
If the user who requested them doesn't pay up the artist can complain to an admin who can then perform the transaction for them.
TGF2 Fifty euro's vs GM pro twenty euro's cannot be the problem I guess. Sure GM lite is free and I have no idea how powerful or limited it is, nor do I know much of GM pro and if it should be compared to MMF2 for 300 euro's.
Now that I think if it, I am not sure if I can be of any specific help since I haven't visited this site very often for a while now. The only exception to that might be this year.
One of the main reasons was work. Less time was left for games, let alone complete games. So no need to upgrade but also no incentive to explore and test new features which may lead to new articles, tutorials, demo's or any other topics.
The moderation situation/structure of this site is unclear to me, but with a decent set of basic rules for good behavior on this site and perhaps more moderators and moderators which will be divided over subjects so they don't have to cover the entire site. But just the articles section, might be a good start for constructive criticism and preventing off topic replies.
O and it might not be possible to check all content before placing, but it would get rid of articles like this: http://create-games.com/article.asp?id=2180 to give an example.
The fact probably remains that lots of people don't start with click products but move on to other game production tools, including me.
So should we have an official "Team formation" day? It sounds like it would be fun to have a bunch of projects by different teams being updated on the projects page.
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Edited by OMC
jenswa.neocities.org
