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Marko

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18th May, 2010 at 00:10:12 -

The idea of this intrigues me - on one hand i applaude the peaceful demonstration for free speech (which i always support the idea of) aimed at the Islamic extremist terror we face at the moment. On the other hand though, i won't be partaking due to the following reasons;

1. It is my girlfriends birthday that day, so i doubt i'll be online.
2. It may offend some non-extremist Muslims, which will do relations between them and non-Muslims no good at all. I may not agree with the rule of not depicting their Prophet, on the other hand while i do not directly suffer as a result of it i feel no need to condemn it.
3. The real threat of terrorist activity on our shores will not go away by drawing some pictures.

That said, it could be one hell of a demonstration!

 
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Watermelon876



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18th May, 2010 at 04:20:20 -


Originally Posted by SoftWarewolf
So are anyone planning something for "draw muhammad day" on may20? i already got a special update ready for my game starcraft goliath, and i might be creating a new game as well, if i got time.

I am not creating this to insult anyone personally.
It is, however, a moral and political opposition to censorship, islam, the koran, religion and irrational belief's in general.

I hope to see more games as well and it could be a very interesting discussion indeed if TDC actually censors and deletes any of them.



That is just mean... You're offending an entire religion...

Edited by Watermelon876

 
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Phredreeke

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18th May, 2010 at 10:51:39 -


Originally Posted by Watermelon876

That is just mean... You're offending an entire religion...



Mean? You mean like hanging a sixteen year old girl for being a victim of rape?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/5217424.stm

Not to mention the talibans (you know, the guys who used to rule in afghanistan before those horrible americans took it over) destroying 6th century Buddha statues

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/taliban-destroy-ancient-buddhist-relics-694425.html

Edited by Phredreeke

 
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Matt Boothman

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18th May, 2010 at 21:58:28 -

The Taliban government that America helped install... ahem... we'll just leave that aside shall we?!

 
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Marko

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18th May, 2010 at 22:18:23 -

Friends and foes come around quickly between the East and West. Remember how we supported Saddam in the Iran-Iraq war?

 
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Matt Boothman

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18th May, 2010 at 22:51:16 -

Yeh. Well I was very small, but I've heard about it. Virtually all the governments the USA now claim as dangerous were installed with help by the Americans.

 
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Marko

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18th May, 2010 at 22:57:47 -

That is also true and i was also very small (i think - i can't remember the exact date now!). As much as i love being a Brit, i do feel ashamed at the way our different governments have switched sides with so many different a$$holes throughout this world (Colonel Gadaffi comes to mind too).

 
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Phredreeke

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18th May, 2010 at 23:35:29 -

I must add that I have nothing against muslims. Just that free speech is more important than keeping people from gettting offended. Once you start restricting free speech it's very easy to keep adding to the restrictions and you're on a slippery slope to total censorship and dictatorship.

This is how it really works. There's a small muslim minority that is very hostile against the western world, that actively SEARCH for material that would be found offensive by muslims (like the danish Muhammed caricatures or the South Park episode) and then display them to the moderate muslims, to rally support against the west. Which of course spurs the west to create more "offensive" content, to show that they won't bow down to death threats.

 
- Ok, you must admit that was the most creative cussing this site have ever seen -

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Silveraura

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19th May, 2010 at 00:08:32 -

People kill for religion as a form of control. Muslim extremists are willing to kill non-Muslims for showing Muhammad because they don't want people to think that he can ever be perceived as any physical form or being. They are afraid that people will begin mis-interpreting one of their holiest symbols or figures. Now that I respect. However what I do not respect is their actions against it. The problem I'm having with accepting this however is that the conclusion I come to, is no answer, but actually a question.
These people clearly feel extremely strong about what they believe and while we don't understand it nor believe we should care... how exactly do we adapt ourselves as a whole, to respect these people and allow them their right to happiness like the rest of us.

Really, what it comes down to is a matter of pathetic high-school bullying, just within the confines of the rules. Yeah, we have free speech and something we should never ever have to worry about losing, but to what excuse do we truly have... to exploit it like this?

I defend the man who teases the victim because he does have his rights. But I attack his actions, not because they were wrong by law, but wrong by moral nature.

Now in the case of South Park and other forms of social satire - I do not believe anything should have been taken seriously here. There is absolutely no reason why nothing should be free game in a show that grants ill-respect to any and everything that fall in it's sights.

What do you think? I feel very strongly about every word I said here and I'd like to see where the discussion heads with it.

Edited by Silveraura

 
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Marko

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19th May, 2010 at 00:23:27 -

I agree with the above post

 
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Matt Boothman

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19th May, 2010 at 00:57:50 -


Originally Posted by SiLVERFIRE
People kill for religion as a form of control. Muslim extremists are willing to kill non-Muslims for showing Muhammad because they don't want people to think that he can ever be perceived as any physical form or being. They are afraid that people will begin mis-interpreting one of their holiest symbols or figures. Now that I respect. However what I do not respect is their actions against it. The problem I'm having with accepting this however is that the conclusion I come to, is no answer, but actually a question.



I would disagree with the point that Muslim extremists really believe that they must kill people who draw Muhammed in case the idea of perceiving Muhammed in a physical form somehow 'spreads'. Is that what you're saying? I think it's more symptomatic of a general hatred/intolerance of Western principles; and I suppose you could say on the other side that it's a Western hatred/intolerance of Islamic principles. They are like oil and water. However much you mix them, they will always stay apart. Islamic ideas are not compatible with Western ideas. You cannot have an Islamic society which allows for criticism of Islam; and you cannot have a Western society in which free speech is universal allowing certain people and religions to go un-criticised.

I wouldn't say the South Park stuff equates to high-school bullying; bullying would be saying "There's a Muslim, I hate him" whereas SP is more akin to saying "There's a Muslim, isn't it fucked up we can't say anything about him?".

This argument, religious conservatism vs free-speech isn't new though, think about Galileo and the Roman Inquisition; the result though is that neither party gives way. But it's an argument we must have, even though we know it's never to be resolved. That way, both viewpoints can progress. Maybe one day, all Islamic societies will treat criticism with silent respect, as progressive Christianity has done (they recently made a statue of Galileo in the Vatican as an apology for his oppression) - and then maybe the West will not treat Islam with the suspicion and degradation it gets.

 
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Muz



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19th May, 2010 at 19:16:45 -

Slippery slope argument doesn't work, lol. USA has been censoring a lot of things in their entertainment, including nudity and some swearing and I don't see them slipping into dictatorship. They've been doing it for decades.


There's a small muslim minority that is very hostile against the western world, that actively SEARCH for material that would be found offensive by muslims (like the danish Muhammed caricatures or the South Park episode) and then display them to the moderate muslims, to rally support against the west. Which of course spurs the west to create more "offensive" content, to show that they won't bow down to death threats.


I think this has it as accurate as possible, though. The caricatures were a horrible faux pas, but since then, they've been actively searching. I'm pretty sure that there are a lot of other Muhammad pictures around, but since nobody can tie them to anything, they've gotten off.

Islamic society does allow criticism. With this little controversy, among others, there's been an anecdote going around about how the Prophet Muhammad himself was bullied and he would instead help the people who bullied him instead of fighting back. And stuff about that being the true meaning of jihad. I think that indicates the attitude of around 70% of the community. But there's always going to be fanatics fighting to the death, and the voice of 1 fanatic is louder than the voices of 100 silent people.

Going from a strictly theological point of view, it's not even explicitly forbidden. It's something done out of respect. I think the anger is mostly about the effort Muslims take to avoid depiction, and someone else just does some sloppy depiction. It's seen as a blatant disrespect for all that work and even a direct racist attack.



I wouldn't say the South Park stuff equates to high-school bullying; bullying would be saying "There's a Muslim, I hate him" whereas SP is more akin to saying "There's a Muslim, isn't it messed up we can't say anything about him?".


I think this hits another point. What South Park does is insult everyone and everything, but it's a sign of friendship.

Take for example, your best friends. You'll insult each other all the time, call them racist names (if they're of a different race), you'll pull pranks on them, slap them around, stuff a cockroach in their pants while they're asleep, etc. It's all a sign of friendship. But if you do this to someone who is weaker and not your real friend, it's bullying.

Here, I think South Park wanted to do it as a sign of friendship, like how they made fun of everything else. But some people seriously took it as a racist insult and they pulled out. They're just not good enough friends right now. The media then blew it right out of proportion, especially since it wasn't even a "we will kill you" death threat, it's a "someone else with more guts will kill you".


The Western world sees it as a blow to free speech and giving in to wannabe terrorists. They argue that censoring a cartoon is a first step towards letting terrorists take over the world and the first step towards the death of free speech.

The Islamic world saw it as a bullying act and hate speech. They argue that allowing them to get away with insults is a first step towards giving in to the Western invaders and one day we'll be powerless to stop Americans and Israelis from genociding the Muslim world.

Western world thinks it's ridiculous for people to get upset over a picture. Islamic world thinks it's ridiculous for people to insult others for the sake of comedy.

It's all rather absurd, really. But if I had to make a choice, I'm sorry, I'd rather choose the death of free speech than genocide. I really don't want my friends to get genocided. You guys will have to deal with being the slaves of terrorists.

Heh, South Park itself gives a funny opinion in episode 143, among others.

 
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Marko

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19th May, 2010 at 19:56:56 -

I would rather die for freedom of speech than live under laws without it. Just as i know my granddad felt the same when he fought the Germans in WW2 and i'm proud of him for that (and also coz he survived too!). It doesn't mean we're slaves of terrorists but the opposite really (though i could sense in your tone Muz you weren't trying to be offensive).

Rule Britannia!

 
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19th May, 2010 at 20:06:37 -

I gladly die to protect "hate speech" Muz if it really has to come down to that choice, which it shouldn't. And don't belittle the threat, condoning a murder is just a bad as committing it.

Basic law of western society is:
I can do whatever I want with my speech and my own property as long as long as I don't infringe on other peoples right to do whatever they want

The fact of the matter is, the Muslims scared comedy central into censoring themselves. The Muslims are entirely in the wrong in my above set of morals. It's stupid to try to equivocate the two sides. They are not equal.

If you don't want to participate in civilized society, then leave.

 
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19th May, 2010 at 21:56:41 -

South Park did NOT insult Mohammed, or Islam. Saying that is a weak excuse. South Park barely mentioned Mohammed, and they would not dare shed him or Islam in a negative light. To earn the lifelong hatred of an extremist Muslim, all you have to do is merely depict Mohammed. That's not an insult. This is criticism. Those two things are not the same, and your attempts to equate that Muz are obscuring the real argument; which is "Why can't our two societies co-exist?". If South Park had been drawing pictures of Mohammed having sex with children, or made cartoons suggesting that Americans should kill Muslims; that's insulting, that's hate speech, and I wouldn't be defending South Park's right to say those things (free speech does come with a journalistic responsibility). However, what South Park said, and what many writers are saying, and what the writers at Jyllands-Posten are voicing are legitimate criticisms of Islam. This is why the two societies are finding it hard to co-exist.

 
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