I just had a thought. I see an awful lot of comments in games that use built in movements telling people to learn Custom movements.
now, i think that it's all very well to want a better quality of games overall to want all games to have cm's.
HOWEVER! do you think it's better to let people become more comfortable with the whole TGF, MMF1.5, MMF2 package before telling them to move onto cm?
I mean i made loads of games before finally submitting to custom movements, and it was hard to learn and honestly felt like a step backward for a while (because you're not actually making games for ages)
Do you think it's better to let people learn them when they're ready?
It is not OKay to force someone to learn about CM. You want "better quality of games overall"? Make some games :---).
Have you been forced to gain klik knowledge? Why do you think about making others learn CMs?
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DaVince This fool just HAD to have a custom rating
Registered 04/09/2004
Points 7998
1st July, 2007 at 10:59:52 -
Good criticism is about doing suggestions to improve someone's work, not force them to do something they don't like. You work best if you do something and want to do it, anyway.
Have you noticed that the greatest klikers have improved themselves without (or with a little) help from others? Someone, who is Really willing to gain knowledge (I don't mention people who want some GAM's to get them together to make ready game) is always welcome.
Others wouldn't get interested in CM stuff.
This thread sounds like "we must tell them that CM is good and SM is bad!". I don't like it a little.
I get your point, Andy. But if noone tells them that the built-in platform engine sucks, then they'll just continue using it. I'm not saying we should bash those who use the built-in movement, without giving them a chance to get comfortable with their program first, but it's still a good idea to point them in the right direction.
When I needed something for a double jump years ago, I started my first CPM. It was more of a neccesity than anything, but I'll never go back (Greedy Bastard non withstanding).
I agree that we should point them in the right direction.
But unfortunately, there is the odd person who bashes people in the comments if they use default movements. It used to be a bigger 'problem', although I'm not sure whether this sort of bashing happens much anymore.
I only started attempting custom movement after properly looking at that 'Zeb' example game that came with TGF. It baffled me for ages (whaaaa? but the player object is set to Static movement! witchcraft!)
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Peblo Custom ratings must be 50 characters or less
Registered 05/07/2002
Points 185
1st July, 2007 at 21:31:24 -
I make engines, not games. Graphics are too hard.
"Isn't it always amazing how we characterize a person's intelligence by how closely their thinking matches ours?"
~Belgarath
It took me years before I actually took on custom movement, but like you Andy, I felt like it was a step backwards for the longest time. I will always try to encourage custom movement for people looking for improvement, and I'll offer to show them what I know. It's whenever people come up and start saying "Default movement is just as good." or "People seem to prefer default over custom." that annoys me.
The default isn't the worst when a fairly experienced person is using it. Ones that figure out how to avoid the 1 pixel ledge hangs and the "head" cieling grab. It's kind of a shame that it doesn't play nice with setting x,y co-ords. That would actually be a good lead in for a custom engine (modding the standard).
True, but I would think that spending a little extra time to create a stable custom engine, rather then fighting with the default engine, and still not get complete control over it, through X,Y.
Of course, fighting with platform movement would be a decent transition over to custom movement, but you shouldn't consider that the peak of your knowledge and refuse to cross over.
Good point. I guess it's down to each person to know when they are ready. Although everyone SHOULD know and have it drummed into them that uploading games with default movements is a terrible, unforgivable sin.
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DaVince This fool just HAD to have a custom rating
Registered 04/09/2004
Points 7998
3rd July, 2007 at 06:33:09 -
Bullshit. Set it up correctly, use some event-based bug fixes and it'll do for any simple game.
Combining custom with default can produce interesting movements, too.
True. Default movement isn't why most games that use it, are shunned. It's because most of the games that do use it... show no attempts to make the game playable.
At one point, I always considered the difficulty in default platform movement, gave my games a difficulty level that was fun. It wasn't until about a couple years that I understood yeah, it was hard as hell... but no where near fun.
OK... let's see..... My first game created with MMF's build in movement has sold over 50,000 copies in stores. My second and third game created with MMF's build in movement has sold over 50,000 copies in stores. My latests games created with MMF's build in movement will be released by a publisher just after the summer in major stores of Europe. I'm negotiating a deal for those two games to be released in the US also.... again in stores. I'm not counting the numerous copies that have been sold through webstores, only the boxed versions.
Just looking at that and enjoying the money using MMF's build in movement has made me do you really think I'll take any of these 'you cannot make a good game without custom movement' comments serious at all? No way.... most people I've seen working on custom movement engines never go beyond that. They spent so much time on working on the movement, that they never actually finish a decent game at all.
I've had many comments about using MMF's build in movements. I've found out that most of the come from people who never even finished a decent game in their life. I don't take those comments serious at all.
Besides, a lot of the custom movement engines have major flaws that make them too unreliable to use in a game.
My moto around here could well be:
ENJOY THE PRAISES YOU GET FOR CREATING CUSTOM MOVEMENT, I RATHER ENJOY THE MONEY I MADE WITHOUT USING CUSTOM MOVEMENT.
Most people here who make custom movements don't do it to make a quick buck. Hell, I could whip up a breakout clone with really fancy photoshop gfx using the built in movements of MMF and get a deal with some random publisher any day. But why would I make that game? Was there something I wanted to tell the world? Or did I just want to make something fun for the people to enjoy?
NO!
I made it without heart just for the $MONEYS$MONEYS$MONEYS$!!!
I would never want to charge money for anything I complete in MMF, and no, I haven't actually released anything yet. Do you know why?
Because when I do release a game, I want it to be that special lovechild, not just something random I whipped up.
Anyway, I don't hold it against you if you only make games for the money, but I won't.
My games aren't randomly whipped games at all. I've spent lot's of time and care creating them, I often just don't spent time on creating custom movement, since Clickteam did a good job on the movements already. I spent time on parts Clickteam hasn't done for me already.
It seems like a lot of people do have the misconception that a game with build in movement can't be fun at all. People actually enjoy my games, they don't care if I spent time on making custom movement or not.
I do make games for money, but not without a heart. I want to give the people who buy a good time and they can have it without a custom movement engine also. As long as people who buy the game comment about the solid and easy to use movement, I really can't be bother to create my own. Most 'casual' gamers like clickteams movements, most clickers don't, we all know that. I care about what the gamer likes and if he likes CT's movement, then he will have it. I don't make games for clickers, I make them for people who like playing casual games. If they're happy, I'm happy and all the time spent on custom movement, is less time spent on other more important parts of the game.
As for "A lot of us care about making better games, not about our profits. Because most of us release our games for free." Compared to other free games that can be found on the web, click games often aren't better at all. I like playing free games, but most free click games simply don't appeal to me (and many others). Perhaps there's so much time spent on making better games in areas where the player will hardly notice it, instead of spending it on areas where the player will truly notice it.
Click games still are the underdog..... people choose playing other free games, because a lot of click games don't appeal to them. Even a free game needs to deliver a complete package and most click games feel like their not complete, because too much time was spent on custom movement and other much more important parts were rushed.
Only clicker will know the difference between custom made movement and built in movement. The rest of the world doesn't know and doesn't care. They want to see an overal good game and most click games don't give that.
You need to give players what they really want, not what clickers want! If you do that you will get your games out there.... free and commercial ones a like!
I am not going to acknowledge the existence of GameFun4U's comment's but rather return to the original topic.
When i started with Tgf, I did not know about daily click, nor custom movement engines. What i did figure out very quickly was that the default platform movement was a buggy mess, that I would not dare allow in the games I shared with my friends. So I only made games with the 8 direction movement.
Then i found a tutorial, and i was able to make platform games that i wouldn't be ashamed to give to my friends.
Oops!
I forgot to actually say something on topic!
I was forced to think about the idea of altering the default platform movement many many years ago when I needed a doublejump. After that, I got hooked! Haven't ever used the default movement since. Only because, default sucks.
But, if you are new to klik, by all means use the default movements. Beacause at that point you need to focus your attention on learning how to program all other stuff. After you've grasped the concept and actually want to produce something that another person would enjoy, you should atleast modify the defaults. That clears up a lot of bugs.
When you want to produce something that will stay in the hearts of the players for more than 20 minutes, you really need to learn CM. Otherwise, the player won't ever forget the fact that he/she is playing a "homemade game", and not a "real game".
Sadly, the fact that most casual gamers are relatively "inexperienced" (to be nice) makes statments like GameFun4U true. But it comes down to what you're trying to do with the software. I think it's a safe bet that most of us around here do it mostly for fun/hobby/addiction. We like spending time on our games to make them a higher level; not because anyone else will notice, but because WE will.
"ENJOY THE PRAISES YOU GET FOR CREATING CUSTOM MOVEMENT, I RATHER ENJOY THE MONEY I MADE WITHOUT USING CUSTOM MOVEMENT."
That statement makes you look like an idiot by the way.
"Clickteam did a good job on the movements already."
There are rather obvious and game play affecting faults with the default engines that can be fixed with the right custom engine.
"It seems like a lot of people do have the misconception that a game with build in movement can't be fun at all. People actually enjoy my games, they don't care if I spent time on making custom movement or not."
That is my point too, however i know of the faults and others should too.
"Most 'casual' gamers like clickteams movements, most clickers don't, we all know that. I care about what the gamer likes and if he likes CT's movement,"
If a player isn't a click, they don't know about the built in movement's faults. However your game will never be above mediocre if you continually use the flawed built in movements.
"I'm happy and all the time spent on custom movement, is less time spent on other more important parts of the game."
Unless you're under pressure to meet a deadline you can simply spend more time making your game better.
"Compared to other free games that can be found on the web, click games often aren't better at all."
Games should be judged on a game by game basis, you can't say all click games are worse than all games made with... say Gamemaker.
"Click games still are the underdog..... people choose playing other free games, because a lot of click games don't appeal to them."
People pay for shitty games on their mobile phones. So they don't actually care all that much in that respect. Also I don't think all that many people care about what a game is made with, they'll play it anyway.
"Only clicker will know the difference between custom made movement and built in movement. The rest of the world doesn't know and doesn't care. They want to see an overal good game and most click games don't give that. "
Only the vast majority of games that use built in movements are rubbish. Seriously. If you care enough to make your own custom movement you care enough to make the rest of the game good too.
Non clickers will know if you get stuck in a wall or turn around instantly but they will simply assume it's bad programming on the makers part, unless they know about TGF, MMF, MMF2 etc.
"You need to give players what they really want, not what clickers want! If you do that you will get your games out there.... free and commercial ones a like!"
Clickers are players too, any good game deserves to do well.
I haven't read through everything I admit, but if I had to do it all again I wish I had learned about CMs when I first started clicking. It took me nearly two years before I made a game that had a CM, and it'll probably be another 2 or 3 games before I get it down right.
Some big positives for making a CM I can think of are "in-between" animation states, like raising or lowering a shield, loading a gun, etc. And of course making it completely from scratch you have a good shot of eventually getting the results you want that live in your head.
--
"Del Duio has received 0 trophies. Click here to see them all."
"To be a true ninja you must first pick the most stealthy of our assorted combat suits. Might I suggest the bright neon orange?"
DXF Games, coming next: Hasslevania 2- This Space for Rent!
There's only one true slope in my game I'm working on now. The player jutters like a bastard while trying to go down it (though he does), and can't press right to go up it at all. In order to go up the slope, he has to jump up it. Since it's only in one place out of the whole game, and people might not even find it, AND it doesn't prohibit the player from getting to the top of said slope, I left it alone.
--
"Del Duio has received 0 trophies. Click here to see them all."
"To be a true ninja you must first pick the most stealthy of our assorted combat suits. Might I suggest the bright neon orange?"
DXF Games, coming next: Hasslevania 2- This Space for Rent!
Working with slopes can be hard to deal with at first, but when you've got a decent fast loop engine down, you can pretty much 'glue' an object to the platform.
It's all a matter of using sensors well.
I'm not sure how i learned using custom movements. I did figure out that coulden't make a cm look better than a modded default engine,so i usually dont use custom engines for top down and platform games. if you make an engine using powers in scrolling and jumping,you can make pretty excellent movements.
I am in the camp of people that are a little too intimidated by CM. I've tried a few times and ended up with shitty movement, so now I just use heavily modified DM, or some very very simple CM.
Umm, I learned TGF using the step through editor in combination with default moving. They don't get much worse then that... and I seem to be taking to MMF2 pretty fine.
The built in movements and step through editor help introduce you to the concept of events and action. Once it makes sense to you, you can take off those training wheels and make things that you can actually be proud of.
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