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DeadmanDines

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11th October, 2006 at 19:41:14 -

The halos are in the paintings because they were already used by those cultures (Greeks, Romans, etc) before they converted to Christianity. When they converted, the halo (along with a cartload of other things such as the easter bunny) came with them.

The problem with saying I should read the Bible carefully is that I do.

Did you know that Jesus said 'do not call anyone your father on earth, for only God is your father'... yet priests are given names like 'father', 'abbot', 'pope', etc - all of which mean father.

The Bible is clearly against using idols in worship, yet the churches are full of them. In fact, the very idea of worshiping Mary is against the concept of worshipping 'Only the True God'.

Up until recently, orthodox churches were telling berieved mothers that their children would be eternally lost in Limbo if they died before being baptised. That's not in the Bible at all, and frankly it's obscene.


I know only too well the things that demons can do. If those people said they saw a glowing figure, they probably did. But it was in support of a whole bunch of concepts that the Bible condemns.

 
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Teapot

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11th October, 2006 at 20:20:42 -

Ok, time for Agnostic Teapot to defend the poor little Christians (being an ex-catholic). No Christian denominations worship Mary, the closest is Catholics who practice Marian devotion but not worship. Catholics are not against Icons, and again, no Christian denomination worships them. People use Icons as inspiration, and worship through them.

Again, I'm not a Christian, I used to be. But I think if you're going to go around criticising what people believe, you should at least get it right.

 
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AndyUK

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11th October, 2006 at 21:52:38 -

@software wolf and deadman dines.

you're both thinking too physically,

The eyes and brain are for the physical body to see and think. Obviously you lose all that when you die but the soul (if it exists) would not work in the same way as the human body, so why would it require these to function?

when you dream you 'see' don't you? without your eyes. Ok you use your brain to create images, but who says that the soul simply doesn't exist.
There is no real evidence to suggest it doesn't.

 
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11th October, 2006 at 22:30:52 -

Actually, the halo thing isn't pagan.
The halo is actually the solar disk, incorporated along with a fuckload of deus sol invictus stuff when the late roman empire decided it would be a lot easier to control people with christianity.

No Christian denominations worship Mary, the closest is Catholics who practice Marian devotion but not worship
A lot of people pray to Mary, along with a whole bunch of other saints for some reason, and even three different gods who are supposedly the same guy. If you want to call yourself a monotheistic religion despite this you have to fall back on semantics like that, I guess.

 
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12th October, 2006 at 14:43:17 -

lol, Christians.

 
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Johnny Look

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12th October, 2006 at 14:44:07 -

Alright I give up.
I'm tired.
It's hard to explain something I can't even understand right, but the truth is the world isn't only hate and war, it's also love, peace, charity, etc...
The day you'll understand this, you'll understand my point.
Either you want it or not, God exists. And it's the only one I would ever stand on my knees for.

 
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Peblo

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12th October, 2006 at 23:12:23 -

This reminds me of Christmas.

 
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Teapot

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13th October, 2006 at 03:50:34 -

I don't think the difference between worshipping something and worshipping through or being devoted to something is merely semantics. Nor do I think the Trinity counts as idoletry. I still don't believe a word of it.

 
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Radix

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13th October, 2006 at 07:52:11 -

Okay?

 
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13th October, 2006 at 13:49:50 -

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit = one God, not three.

On the subject of several gods...

Mormons worship demi-Gods; they say that God created the world, but then a host of other gods God created made everything else. They also believe that in 'The End of Time' all Mormons will be Gods. T_T

Jehovah's Witnessess believe that Saint Michael is Jesus, and they prey to several demi-Gods. They think that only 1,000 people (I'm guessing they'll be Jehovah's) will get to Heaven, while everyone else is thrown into oblivion.

On an intresting side note, Catholics are always attacked for their clergy-boy-lovers...but did you know, a Jehovah 'Elder' raped a boy so bad he loss control of his bowels? (I'm not kidding. I'll post the link to the article sometime).

 
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DeadmanDines

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13th October, 2006 at 16:32:05 -

Lol, I'm a J/W

J/W's believe that Michael the Archangel is the angelic name for Jesus (he's given lots of names in the Bible). And no, they absolutely do not pray to demi-gods, it's only to Jehovah (the hebrew name for God. It's sometimes pronounced 'Yahweh' by other religions). They won't even pray to Jesus.

Also, the number's 144,000 who go to heaven as what the Bible refers to as 'firstfruits' (roughly the first 144,000 people to become christians)- so no, most of them aren't Jehovah's Witnesses. Most of them would have been people who became Christians early on, such as Jesus' apostles, etc.

The other billions of humans who've ever lived aren't 'thrown into oblivion'. The J/W belief is that man was made to live on Earth (hence why so few are expected to go to heaven, it's just not what we were designed for).

According to the J/W's, God's ultimate purpose is a world without pain and suffering. Armageddon is simply a war between God and man, to remove the people and governments that stand in the way of this. So Armageddon's not actually bad for mankind in general.

Once it's over, the world is gradually reverted to the way it was before everything went wrong. The Bible says Jesus would 'break up the works of the Devil', and that's what this process is about - people who died (not the evil ones) are resurrected to a human body that looks and feels like their old one, with a few corrections where necessary.


As for the Elder story, I don't doubt that it's true. Fortunately, things like this are incredibly rare in comparison with other religions. To their credit, Witnesses publish a lot of information for their children to protect them from abuse.

 
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DeadmanDines

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13th October, 2006 at 17:07:59 -

I'm not, I actually have reasons for believing everything I do.

But I honestly do appreciate that this may (hehe, *may*) seem odd to people. You can't do justice to something like this in a forum post, there's just too much in it.

 
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Radix

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14th October, 2006 at 04:43:14 -

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit = one God, not three.
Okay, but why? How can a father and a son be the same guy? Why would jesus say god, father, lord, rather than just 'me, lol'? Why wouldn't you just call them all the same thing?

Spoiler: you would. It's another Council of Nicaea retcon. The scripture itself with the exception of one well-known later addition refers to the father and son only as separate entities (and the Spirit as... uh, yeah).

 
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Matt Boothman

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14th October, 2006 at 06:51:25 -

Aww Dines man, I see your just the same as the rest.

Philosophically speaking, your only proof of these things is a book, which may or may not have lost meaning over the countless translations. And no, it doesn't sound "odd" that you believe in this, just downright stupid.

"The J/W belief is that man was made to live on Earth (hence why so few are expected to go to heaven..."
If that was the case Dines, why would anybody go to heaven at all? If it's not what we were designed for?

The Bible is truly a good book. A lot of what it says is just, compassionate stuff. It's just the people who take to much out of it that's wrong with the world, and those that take every word as given.

Funnily enough, I was speaking to Jon about the Bible. There was this case where he was having an argument on a forum, and he wanted to ban this guy and win the argument. I said that he must "turn the other cheek", being a Christian and all, and he replied "yeah but that doesn't mean I have to be a doormat." I'll leave you to come to your own conclusions about Christianity at large.

 
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DeadmanDines

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14th October, 2006 at 14:15:21 -

The heaven thing: no angel knows what it's like to have been a 'fallen' human being like we all are. We're a far cry from the way humans were intended to be. Angels don't forget things, they don't know what it's like to get tired, to be ill, to die. This sampling of 144,000 people contains individuals who've been through all of that, which makes them perfect assistants to Jesus in caring for us whilst we still bear some scars from the pre-armageddon world.


"which may or may not have lost meaning over the countless translations."

I don't want this to turn into an argument, but that's actually not in line with the evidence (at least, from the years of research I've done).

The Dead Sea scrolls have actually shown that - over hundreds of years - Bible copies were almost unaltered. Major differences only started to appear quite late, by which time there were so many more accurate copies that it was easy to compare and spot errors (if 4 texts say one phrase and 1 says another, you logically go with the other 3). So there's little damage been done due to basic copying.

As for translation, they've not actually been translated through thousands of languages as people imagine. Hebrew -> Aramaic -> Greek, that's it, and there are still Hebrew and Aramaic versions to compare with the Greek. It's not a dire situation.

The more research I've personally done, the more evidence actually points in the Bible's favour.

 
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