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Matt Boothman

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12th August, 2006 at 17:12:52 -

Just thought I'd try to gather opinion on the subject.
Watch this video of George Galloway: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68eSYm96Jdo

While I'm not saying Hezbollah have the right method in what it is doing, I do feel that Israel are as much terrorist as al Qaeda, or Hezbollah, or Hamas. And it's putting the UK and the US in danger because our governments continue to back Israel with weapons, and we will pay for it in fire and blood and anguish.

And while Bush and Blair continue to sanction illegal action by Israel, then Mr Average will be the one who is blown up in an aircraft by Muslim militants. And as Galloway says, the media is totally biased towards Israel and regards any Muslim militant group as terrorist. It's time for us to sever ties with Israel and in fact, leave well out of the Middle East. That is all.

 
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12th August, 2006 at 18:33:17 -

I don't really know too much about the situation's details as I was away in France when it started.

But I do know that George Galloway is a total idiot

 
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12th August, 2006 at 20:39:03 -

I support Israel. They've been putting up with terrorists for several years; it's about time they kicked some terrorist ass.

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13th August, 2006 at 02:08:09 -

i don't pay much attention to the news but i get really interested about the current news when my dad talks about it

he says that the entire goal of the USA (actually, it's really just bush & co) is to own oil resources through proxy wars to indirectly gain control over china's export business because china is one of the third (i think) largest growing nations/something.he said something about some boxes/crates/whatever in california being so high that the area is considered the place where the sun sets first and guess what, most if not all of those crates are from china. that shows just how much the world depends on china's inexpensive labour/exports.

by gaining control of the world's oil resource bush can change oil prices as he pleases to hinder china's export business

please note, that this is what i could make of my dad's comments/analyzations/revalations/whatever

the bush history is filled with wars. from reading articles on the net (not THAT much mind you) i know that both bush's father and grand dad were war presidents. bush jr's father had his war with iran and bush jr's grand dad even supported hitler (this was quite the surprise when i read it) i'll try to find these articles tomorrow to back up the bit about bush jr's grand dad and hitler.

 
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Matt Boothman

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13th August, 2006 at 07:29:09 -

Lazarus, IMO they themselves are to blame - the Israelis illegally raided, plundered and generally invaded lands around their own fragile state. And guess where they got the munitions from?

And Sensation, although that's a valid point, I don't think it has too much to do with Israel, Hezbollah et al. I'm quite sure that the United States want to own all the oil - we've seen it in the past, we are seeing it in Iraq, and we will see it in Iran not far from now. As my chemistry teacher once put it, "the US is the cause of most of the world's troubles, and until they are stopped then we will carry on living in this commercially-powered policed world."

 
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13th August, 2006 at 11:27:56 -

After WWII, everyone felt guilty about what happened to the jews, so they let them have Israel, their promised land. What they forgot about was that it was already populated by the palestines.

IMO Israel and Palestine are like two small children, who don't want to share and want the whole country for themselves.

 
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13th August, 2006 at 17:43:44 -

Yeah, but the Muslims stole the land from the Jews years ago! Don't kid yourself; it should be Jew-land.

Don't get me wrong, the whole war between Israel and Palestine is a joke. They just can't get over the fact that they have to share it.

I'm still rooting for Israel.

P.S. Muslim is a Violent religion; it will never compromise with Israel. If you try to compare Christianity/Judism to Islam, you don't know shit about either of them.

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13th August, 2006 at 20:47:31 -

Muslim isn't a religion. Islam is a religion. A muslim is a person who believes in Islam.

 
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13th August, 2006 at 22:15:53 -

When a region is conquered, settled and operates as a sovereign nation for any period of time it's legitimate. Claiming that attacks on civilians are justified because Israel isn't a real state is ridiculous.

SPOILER: Just about every established nation on earth has displaced somebody at least once to get where it is today. The British Empire used to do it as a matter of course. The Americas were settled by slaughtering the indiginous inhabitatants. None of that was very nice, but it's irrelevant today.

The attack itself is directly comparable to the American-led Allies-supported invasion of Afghanistan. If you want to call Israel a terrorist (word which has almost lost all meaning) state, then you must also consider the Allied nations as such.
Which is fine.
But pretty stupid.

 
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13th August, 2006 at 23:29:23 -

Pardon me, you're right. I meant Islam.

I haven't slept in about a week.

 
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13th August, 2006 at 23:37:57 -

What you meant were the Shia, who are batshit crazy for the whole martydom thing. The rest of them (along with fundie christians) may not like Israel, but they aren't going to war over it.

 
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14th August, 2006 at 06:55:17 -

The difference nowadays Radix is that with the world's transportation systems and liquid explosive thingies means that the "victim" (I use the term loosely) can now rebel against the superpowers, no matter how small the faction. This is a relatively new thing, and until the western powers stop trying to police the world and acting like Israel's big brother then we will continue to pay for it.

A great letter in my daily newspaper:
"Perhaps the US flag should contain only one star - the star of David, for it seems the US is in thrall with Israel."

Islam is no more violent than Christianity, Judaism et al. It's idiots like Lazarus, who cannot comprehend what has gone on throughout the years, behind the backs of the media, who apply their prejudices and misconceptions to Muslims. Result? Backlash.

Maybe as an experiment the western powers should keep their minds on their own countries just for once, instead of funding military jaunts on the other side of the world. Or would that make oil prices too high for the gas-guzzling yanks?

 
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14th August, 2006 at 08:14:44 -

We should let France have the country so they can make the whole thing a big topless beach.

 
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14th August, 2006 at 08:34:08 -

Islam is no more violent than Christianity, Judaism et al.
I completely agree. Christians and Jews can be bloodthirsty motherfuckers. When it comes to a certain type of Shi'ite, they're something like fatalist Zerg.

The difference nowadays Radix is that with the world's transportation systems and liquid explosive thingies means that the "victim" (I use the term loosely) can now rebel against the superpowers, no matter how small the faction. This is a relatively new thing, and until the western powers stop trying to police the world and acting like Israel's big brother then we will continue to pay for it.
Asymmetric warfare is NOT a new thing. Small rag-tag forces with the support of the populace can and have formed effective fighting forces throughout history. The only difference now is that with the invention of mass media the larger forces actually care about civilian casualties. Back in the good old days of imperialism a British or Roman commander wouldn't flinch at wiping out a village to squash insurgency.

Maybe as an experiment the western powers should keep their minds on their own countries just for once, instead of funding military jaunts on the other side of the world.
Uh, what? The IDF is an incredibly well-equipped and trained (though I think they're overrated) army, and they would be with or without Western support. Sorry to ruin your illusion, but Israel has strong bonds with Western countries not over guilt over Nazism, but because the WW2 Jewish diaspora scattered the population throughout the world and they retain their ties with Israel. You're suggesting that the West should break ties with a valuable ally just because you don't like them?

If it makes you feel any better, I'm pretty sure Israel is going to lose, at least in the long run. The IDF really hates losing soldiers, but Hezbollah just loves martydom and has been itching for all-out war for ages. And they've got more or less the entire Shi'ite population of southern Lebanon for cannon fodder.

 
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Matt Boothman

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14th August, 2006 at 12:28:46 -

But the difference with the rag-tag forces then and now is that they can cause massive damage in transport systems, creating huge media coverage and a national scare, all using relatively cheap equipment. In the olden days if something happened in London, and you lived in Edinburgh, you probably wouldn't find out till weeks later, and even then it would have little or no relevance to you. Now the world has shrunk we can expect to know about it there and then, and be warned of similar attacks in a town near you. The widespread panic is often more effective than the actual event.

And I never said that we have bonds with Israel over guilt. You might be confusing me with someone else. But, I still hold the belief that we should break ties with Israel. How are they an ally? What do they offer us? And in Britain there are many many more Muslims than Jews, yet we don't seem to have any special relations with Pakistan, or Iran, or anywhere.

It's happened in the past many times - Britain, the US, whoever, always try to sort things out in foreign countries that have little actually to do with them (except that they happen to gain some commodity, or get their favoured man in power). Vietnam? Iraq? Palestine? And it always blows up in their faces. And it's taken me this long to see.

Why can't we all just be like Norway?

 
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14th August, 2006 at 13:03:56 -

The problem is, the world isn't perfect, and never will be. Mankind has constantly been struggling for power, and inventing new ways of overpowering their adversaries. There will always be a power struggle somewhere, and as technology develops, so will the weapons that the armies have at their disposal. Eventually it'll reach a stage where superweapons are such that they cannot be used for fear of the end of everything.

Whilst these 'local' conflicts seem like a big deal, they're actually nothing compared to what will happen if foreign nations keep getting involved. Especially if a humongous cock-up comes along, then before long we have another World War. Kapow. Millions (maybe even billions, after all, they don't seem to care much for civilians, do they?) could die.

You'd think that the world should wake up to what disasters could arise if they continue to do what they're doing. But those with power abuse it, and those without it want it, and will try to take it from those that have it. Then they have the power, and those who had it, want it back. Thus a vicious circle occurs.



 
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14th August, 2006 at 14:01:51 -

And the best way to end a vicious circle? Have the wisdom to step outside of it.

 
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14th August, 2006 at 14:16:56 -

Noodle, you really go for the throat, don't you?

Just because a bunch of morons got the wrong message from Christianity (see www.godhatesfags.com ) and Judaism doesn't mean everyone got the wrong idea.

At the base of Christianity/Judaism the message is to spread peace.

At the base of Islam, you'll find the message that clearly states "destroy the infidels".

You'll find Jesus/Moses in the media all the time; people laugh at Jews/Christians all the time, and it's pretty damn funny. But when we make fun of Islam, they put a jihad on our heads.

I'm going to go draw Mohammad having sex with a Panda now.

 
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14th August, 2006 at 14:21:41 -

Make it a nazi panda. For the hell of it.

 
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14th August, 2006 at 14:22:07 -

Good idea. ^_-

 
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14th August, 2006 at 14:29:29 -

Lazarus, you're thoughts about Islam are spurious, malinformed, ignorant and downright insulting. If you didn't already now, Islam, Judaism and Christianity are all Abrahamic religions - which means they are all based on the same thing. In fact, Islam was based around Christianity which was based around Judaism. Baha'i (sp?) is the successor to this.

Why don't you go and boil your head you ignorant little toad?

 
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14th August, 2006 at 14:53:17 -

Stop talking down to me, I have done research on the subject.

You really are a waste of my time. Fuck you and your biased opinions. Do some research.



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14th August, 2006 at 14:54:48 -

LOL!

 
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14th August, 2006 at 15:20:33 -

http://www.godhatessweden.com/

Haha, awesome

 
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14th August, 2006 at 15:43:34 -

Research!? My fat fuckin hairy arse. You couldn't research your own name.

 
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14th August, 2006 at 18:43:16 -

It's true, Islam is somewhat of a successor of Christianity (or more like Judaism actually), adapted for the arabic region (in other words, allowing polygamy).

Everyone should adapt Phredreekism instead. That is, play video games, have sex and be happy. Of course, society would collapse not soon after due to everyone expecting someone else to do all the work. But it'd be fun for the few hours (minutes?) it would last.

 
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14th August, 2006 at 23:41:12 -

The widespread panic is often more effective than the actual event.
Correct, terrorism is more effective thanks to the world media. But terrorism and insurgency are not the same thing. And none of this has anything to do with Israel.

And I never said that we have bonds with Israel over guilt. You might be confusing me with someone else.
Sorry, all these stupid 'RAARGH ISRAEL' sentiments kind of blur together after a while.

But, I still hold the belief that we should break ties with Israel. How are they an ally? What do they offer us?
They're a relatively wealthy nation with the strongest military in the region, and are in an invaluable tactical position. Not to mention intelligence and counter-terrorism.

And what is your reason that we should cease ties? You haven't responded to my point that this invasion is comparable to the invasion of Afghanistan.

And in Britain there are many many more Muslims than Jews, yet we don't seem to have any special relations with Pakistan, or Iran, or anywhere.
As you seem to be unaware, politics is complicated. For one thing, Jews simply got here first.
And what's your point with this statement? If, as you should, reject that it's due to guilt, are you suggesting a third option? I'm sure a paranoid conspiracy or two couldn't hurt your argument at this point.

It's happened in the past many times - Britain, the US, whoever, always try to sort things out in foreign countries that have little actually to do with them (except that they happen to gain some commodity, or get their favoured man in power). Vietnam? Iraq? Palestine? And it always blows up in their faces. And it's taken me this long to see.
So? This isn't Britain or the US's war, this is Israels. You aren't proposing that the West not fight (fortunate since we aren't fighting), you're suggesting that we break ties with Israel because they're fighting. So by extension you believe Britain should have broken ties with the US because of Vietnam?

 
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15th August, 2006 at 14:14:24 -

Not simply because they are fighting, it's because they are fighting an illegal war. I think it's perfectly reasonable for countries to break alliances if other nations do wrong, that way they might think twice about invading somewhere.

Oh, and I do believe the allied nations are terrorist states. But like you say, that word has lost meaning. From now on, terrorist should mean only people who intend to cause terror, and not just those that do.

Correct, terrorism is more effective thanks to the world media. But terrorism and insurgency are not the same thing. And none of this has anything to do with Israel.
It has everything to do with Israel. Israel invades <insert Islamic country name>, Islamic country fights back, the west supports Israel, Islamic country feels angry at the West, Islamic men vow to fight the West, terrorist attacks happen, the West fights back at terrorism, Muslims get even more angry etc etc.

They're a relatively wealthy nation with the strongest military in the region, and are in an invaluable tactical position. Not to mention intelligence and counter-terrorism.
Why exactly do we need a military there? Why do we need intelligence? If we weren't fighting and funding wars there we wouldn't need them. And there'd be no terrorism.

For one thing, Jews simply got here first.
And that means Jews have first dibs on alliances? And are actively playing against the Muslims in Britain via the foreign policy?

So by extension you believe Britain should have broken ties with the US because of Vietnam?
In a perfect world, yes. But we don't live there. However, Israel is no superpower. They do not offer us a single thing except trouble. If we had the US against us no doubt they could destroy us. You simply can't afford to be the US's enemies (see Iran). But that doesn't mean pandering to their every beck and call.

Once again, why can't we all be more like Norway? Or Switzerland, yeah Switzerland.

 
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15th August, 2006 at 22:28:04 -

"Why exactly do we need a military there? Why do we need intelligence? If we weren't fighting and funding wars there we wouldn't need them. And there'd be no terrorism."

I hope i misinterpreted that part. Do you seriously believe that if the US and UK would stop funding, directly or indirectly, certain sides in conflicts, all conflicts would magically solve? What the fuck? "Terrorism" will exist as long as there are groups ready to fight against a significantly larger military power, and that will be true as long as us humans exist.

I'm taking a neutral stance in this conflict because both the Israelis and Hezbollah are acting like retards, much like all parts of most other never-ending conflicts out there. However, I hate it when single tracked people simply decides to take one side and completely omits half the facts and responsibility.

"And that means Jews have first dibs on alliances? And are actively playing against the Muslims in Britain via the foreign policy?"

You're talking about Jews like they were some collective mind. Just like many other racists talk about muslims. I never thought I'd meet someone who believed in the Zog-machine at TDC. About why they are "our" allies (I'm from Sweden so I don't really know how much the Jewish conspiracy affects you guys), I'd say it's because "we" are (or feel is a better word 'cause actually we are not) culturally close(r) to Israel. That's just the way things are, and it won't change overnight.

"Once again, why can't we all be more like Norway? Or Switzerland, yeah Switzerland."

Good thing you changed your stance. Because Norway happens to be a part of NATO and they also have sent (while very few) soldiers to Iraq.

 
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16th August, 2006 at 01:24:19 -

"Whispers" did a good job of covering all that crap, however:

However, Israel is no superpower. They do not offer us a single thing except trouble.
Bullshit. What you're saying is that when someone does something you personally don't like we should break ties with them, regardless of what economic, military or political benefits they offer us. You give a reason why ties with the US shouldn't be broken (and weren't), but the the only difference in utility between a US and Israeli alliance is scale. Israel may not be as powerful as the US nevertheless they are still a powerful country with something to offer.

What you want is an exclusionist UK that won't talk to any countries that don't think and act exactly the same way. So in persuit of minimizing enemies you get rid of your allies. That is an incredibly stupid idea.

So by extension you believe Britain should have broken ties with the US because of Vietnam?
In a perfect world, yes. But we don't live there.

Yes, you do live there. You want a list of bastardly things the UK has done? Again, something you STILL HAVE NOT RESPONDED TO: that the NATO invasion of Afghanistan is directly comparable to Israel's current action.

 
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16th August, 2006 at 02:04:37 -

eugh, politics at TDC =S. I say lets party with the terrorists, and then they wont be so bad.

 

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16th August, 2006 at 04:39:30 -

This is rather un-PC but I do somewhat question the validity of the state of Israel. That said, people are living there today through no fault of their own. Bombing civilian targets is wrong, regardless. To say that Israel has had to put up with terrorism is a very skewed point of view, terrorist itself is a very skewed word, but most of the Palestinians that many have deemed 'terrorists' would consider themselves 'freedom fighters', as a marginalised people desperately attempting to overthrow their oppressors. This does not excuse violence against civilians, but simply exposes the typical western view that we should 'kick terrorist arse' without attempting to find the roots of the problem.

It's such a shame to see Lebanon, a country that had achieved relative peace (relative to its own history and the rest of the middle east), becoming such a dangerous place again. A lot of kids from my school were there seeing relatives when the conflict started. I can't helpo but feel that Iraeli leaders are acting like twelve year olds. Twelve year olds with US support (there's no way around it, the elite in America by-and-large have Israels interests at heart).

 
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16th August, 2006 at 06:16:15 -

Exactly Teapot.

The attack itself is directly comparable to the American-led Allies-supported invasion of Afghanistan.
No, it isn't. Afghanistan was invaded because the US thought it was harbouring terrorism (under the pretense of destroying Taliban). Israel invaded Lebanon because Hezbollah were trying to expel the IDF from Southern Lebanon (which Israel had occupancy of since 1982). Israel held the Lebanese government responsible, and so bombed the fuck out of it.

You're talking about Jews like they were some collective mind.
Actually IMO they are a collective mind. The Jewish community is very tight-knit as I'm sure you are aware of, and maybe because of their small numbers they tend to act as one. Most Jewish people are perfectly peaceful, but they will mostly always support the existence of Israel. There are small factions of anti-Zionist Jews, but they are in the minority by far.

Israel may not be as powerful as the US nevertheless they are still a powerful country with something to offer.
What exactly? The IDF? A force that would no doubt be much smaller than it is if it weren't for all the unnecessary wars it causes? Israel is the problem, no the solution.

You want a list of bastardly things the UK has done?
You do not need to tell me. I already hate this country's foreign policy and colonial past without you telling me the myriad of atrocities I might not have heard of.

So in persuit of minimizing enemies you get rid of your allies.
Tell me, is it really so stupid an idea? A country with no enemies fights no wars. However, a country who supports illegal and morally-wrong wars has many enemies. You are saying there's no place in the world for the Switzerlands or the Costa Ricas? I can compare it to a school system. The bully has many allies who are secretly scared of it. But if all the bullies friends decided to take the right path and distance themselves, the bully is powerless.

Do you seriously believe that if the US and UK would stop funding, directly or indirectly, certain sides in conflicts, all conflicts would magically solve? No, but the terrorists would stop attacking us. Look at Spain - they supported the illegal invasion of Iraq and paid for it in Madrid. The new leader pulls out of Iraq and the terrorism stops. Funny that.

 
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16th August, 2006 at 07:47:31 -

Israel invaded Lebanon because Hezbollah were trying to expel the IDF from Southern Lebanon
Hezbollah started this conflict with an attack on Israel. That isn't an attempt to expel IDF forces, that's an act of agression designed to start a fight because they know they can win a prolonged ground war.

Israel held the Lebanese government responsible, and so bombed the fuck out of it.
Precisely the same situation as the Taliban in Afghanistan. Why hadn't the Lebanese government put a stop to Hezbollahs actions?

Or are terrorist attacks on Israel justified because you hate Jews?

Otherwise, I can't see how you could defend Hezbollah's actions. The percentage of the populations over 65 in that region is pretty low. Nobody is fighting the 1948 war anymore, regardless of the excuses. The 'validity' of Israel is irrelevant. Why was the IDF in southern Lebanon? Because there was a dangerous enemy there, as recently quite blatantly demonstrated. That's entirely pragmatic.

Israel may not be as powerful as the US nevertheless they are still a powerful country with something to offer.
What exactly?

I've already fucking covered that, read up a couple of posts.

You do not need to tell me. I already hate this country's foreign policy and colonial past without you telling me the myriad of atrocities I might not have heard of.
Right. None of that stuff is particularly nice, and every country on the planet has had its own little atrocities. For Israel to be abandoned over something as relatively minor as the current conflict would be hypocrisy.

You are saying there's no place in the world for the Switzerlands or the Costa Ricas?
Switzerland is a member of the EAP branch of NATO, and no doubt a number alliances. Their military expendature is in the billions of euros. They have a treaty that makes them responsible for the defence of liechtenstein. Don't confuse neutrality with isolationist fuckwitism.
Costa Rica, similarly, is a member of the IACHR and UPEACE, and would be defended by neighbour countries and retains an armed force regardless. That's not pacifism, it's an inability to do anything. The army was abolished for political reasons.
Now, if the US were to abandon its armed forces, North Korea would wet its pants. So that's an impractical argument presuming you actually meant something by mentioning Costa Rica and didn't just want a second example and couldn't think of anything better.

Tell me, is it really so stupid an idea? A country with no enemies fights no wars.
A country with no allies stunts its own economic growth and quality of life, and leaves itself open to predation by expansionist nations.

The new leader pulls out of Iraq and the terrorism stops. Funny that.
Yeah appeasement worked out really great for Poland. Just because something works for Spain doesn't mean it's practical for anyone else. They never a major player. The grudge against the West dates back to the Cold War: it's not something you can just switch off.

 
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Matt Boothman

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16th August, 2006 at 10:16:40 -

Hezbollah started this conflict with an attack on Israel.
This conflict has been going on for decades, this is just the latest flare up of it. The real starter of the war was Israel with its occupancy of Southern Lebanon.

I've already fucking covered that, read up a couple of posts.
From before:
Israel may not be as powerful as the US nevertheless they are still a powerful country with something to offer.
You didn't actually cover it, merely said that it was "something". Lord knows what this something is, but if you said it *must* be important.

Or are terrorist attacks on Israel justified because you hate Jews?
From me before:
While I'm not saying Hezbollah have the right method in what it is doing...
I never said terrorist attacks were justified.

Don't confuse neutrality with isolationist fuckwitism.
I am not doing. I am not against defence forces, and armies sustained only for protecting your country. I am against needless wars fought over the other side of the world in the name of countering terrorism. Can you not see? Or have you swallowed the bullshit as well Radix?

And Radix; you seem to imply that I have some kind of prejudice against Jews. This is not the case. I simply question the valdity of Israel, and question our reasons for supporting it, regardless of any harm which has, and will, come to our own countries.

Yeah, appeasement worked out really great for Poland
We are in no danger of being invaded by these countries. Terrorist attacks are happening because of our own actions in the area. Muslims have every right to feel angry at the West. However, blowing up people is never right, it's just that people are getting so desperate that they feel it is the only option.

 
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Whippers With



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16th August, 2006 at 11:16:11 -

I think what Radix means by the difference between neutrality and "isolationist fuckwitism" (lol), is that military neutrality merely means you won't support wars with equipment or manpower. However, neutral countries have no obligation to, and do not, cut ties with countries just because they are in military conflicts. So actually, you don't want to be like Switzerland either.


*sigh* I just spent a few minutes writing a detailed answer/argument, but just realized Deadguy has a point. None of us will change our opinion in this matter, because we are all so convinced we are right. Blah. Let's invite Hezbollah and the top brass of the Jewish conspiracy to the next Click Convention, and there will be no more war!

 
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Radix

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16th August, 2006 at 22:33:23 -

The real starter of the war was Israel with its occupancy of Southern Lebanon.
Semantics. Sure there's history. The cause of the current armed conflict was Hezbollah provocation.

You didn't actually cover it
Sigh:
They're a relatively wealthy nation with the strongest military in the region, and are in an invaluable tactical position. Not to mention intelligence and counter-terrorism.

I never said terrorist attacks were justified.
So how can you claim a counter-terrorist action is so heinous that we should cut ties with Israel?

And Radix; you seem to imply that I have some kind of prejudice against Jews. This is not the case. I simply question the valdity of Israel, and question our reasons for supporting it, regardless of any harm which has, and will, come to our own countries.
And you ignore the hypocricy in that.

Additionally you contradict yourself:
We are in no danger of being invaded by these countries. Terrorist attacks are happening because of our own actions in the area.
So you say we have nothing to fear (which is true, the southern Lebanese combatants are dirt-poor guerillas), and that we have already earned the ire of these terrorists.
So what, then, are we to benefit from abandoning Israel? Israel, whose intelligence is valuable in the surveillance of these terrorist groups that we've already pissed off?

Muslims have every right to feel angry at the West. However, blowing up people is never right, it's just that people are getting so desperate that they feel it is the only option.
This makes utterly no sense. And I think you'll find that the majority of muslims don't have any burning desire to blow shit up. The militant extremist few are carrying grudges going back to the cold war, coupled with some bizarre religious bullshit justifications for jihad.

I am against needless wars fought over the other side of the world in the name of countering terrorism.
And I'm more in favour of global stability as opposed to severing all ties and covering our collective ears and humming. There is a BIG BIG DIFFERENCE between America's illegal imperialist invasions and Israel crossing its border to respond to attacks on its own soil.

Image Edited by the Author.

 
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Matt Boothman

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17th August, 2006 at 07:54:02 -

It's not "counter-terrorist action", it's continued occupation of Southern Lebanon. The wish of Hizbollah is to rid this part of their own country of armed forces.

And you ignore the hypocricy in that.
Unlike most people, I do not consider Israel to be the only place where Jews can live. In fact, there are plenty of Jews that actually hold that point of view, but as I said before, they are the minority. The area is a religious place for Muslim, Christian and Jew alike - but the Israelis seem to believe that it is theirs only. What I would really like to see is a non-religiously affiliated state that caters for Jew as well as Muslim as well as Christian. At the moment, Israel is under Jewish law, despite the fact there is a sizeable minority of Palestinians in it (who were there before the West kicked them out to house the Jews).

So what, then, are we to benefit from abandoning Israel?
Is peace good enough for you?

And I think you'll find that the majority of muslims don't have any burning desire to blow shit up.
Once again, your presumptions are like a coiled spring. A minority of Muslims are disillusioned (sp?) with the West, for the crimes committed to their brothers, the Palestinians. Over the years, the Palestinians have seen their share of their homeland decrease and descrease. They no longer have any part of Jerusalem, due to Israeli invasion and subsequent annexion. They can only live as communities in tiny, poor parts of Israel, where they cannot even live by their own laws. This is the reason why some Muslims want to blow shit up.

 
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Phredreeke

Don't listen to this idiot

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17th August, 2006 at 09:31:22 -

*dresses up as a muslim terrorist*

My name is Achmed Muhammed al Jabbar, and I'm gonna blow this site up.

*explodes*

 
- Ok, you must admit that was the most creative cussing this site have ever seen -

Make some more box arts damnit!
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Yai7

Peace & Love

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17th August, 2006 at 10:32:32 -

Sick! Wer'e all people!
What does it matter actually if I'm black, Arabian, Frence ,Israelite or so?

Wer'e people!!! What does it matters who are they?!? I don't care!!!
Several people that are called goverments, terror organisers, and soldiers got abit mad, why should nations suffer for?!? What give noodle? Your'e first of all a human!

All of you, are at first Human... I don't care... Color & nation seeing was for making jokes at first purpose, or for a king's control, but slided far more... Wer'e humans!

The original purpose of the Jewish was to be world defenders and peace bringer.
Consider this crazy "Nation" as crew of white bombermen defending the other colored bombermen people... Like in Bomberman 94'... And I, like many other Jewish didn't wanted to take the job! It's just significant meaning... Jewish people at first were being to protect the world with their prayers, that's all... Otherwise, wer'e all human, and all nations are same... So one got a praying book that does strange things...!

Come on, let's klik and play as we always do, wer'e good in it. To admit, I don't really want to border people. Fuck with national devide... If I could had arabian gal for a night, and God was pleased by that, I would take the option.

& I'm an Israelite!

 
(=

Yai7

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17th August, 2006 at 10:38:33 -

Beside, admit it... All these wars are just for getting a good fuck.
Isn't it for feeling good? Wer'e all children! Wer'e small toys on a playfield!

Since when they sent us killing each other for no reason? People should take living as a play! What happended to the Adventure Island living style? I feel more like that Islander: Wonderboy than being an Israelite...

 
(=

Matt Boothman

The Nissan Micra of forum members

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17th August, 2006 at 10:46:42 -

What?! All the right words, but necessarily in the right order Nastyman.

And no, it doesn't matter who race or creed you are. But religion is the cause of this conflict.

 
http://soundcloud.com/normbo - Listen to my music.

Yai7

Peace & Love

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17th August, 2006 at 11:05:49 -

Right! Because religion was made to free you, and for now, it locks and cage the people in a prison of narrow thinking... Religion was only made to be a game, and by the years it was turned on to be a stricting rule system that brings wars, depress and distruction... On the books I read about bibble it often claimed that many of the original terms lost their true meaning so we left with bunch of un-defined sentences...

The ancients knew the bibble well to explain what it holds, so wars could keep into none... Today, what we think is not obiously the truth... Imagin that world was a big playfield in it's original perpose, but some mean guys decided to ruin for the other players, and told them it's a fight for a life of a nation, also as psychology was invented to claim terms of hyperactivity, delousions, etc... Also pagan beliefs, that cage you to work your life for a "fatal-furry" deity with overwhelming demands...

I can tell you... It's be good and play... Wer'e all toys. Our deity is nice as a big yellow smiley, and all he wants is our good, so lets forget it... If the worship work just makes a person upset and warful, I'm sure that God will tell that person to screw with it, and go have fun at the Videogame arcades... Love & Peace are the most improtant... Why are we sucrufrice lambs? Why do we kill God's children? What is it for? Aren't we do it for piece? What gives? Today we got PS2, We got a Revolution, We got websites like this, It's for a play... I almost sure that God doesn't really matters if you pray every day, and go to church to please him... He care about you, being happy and lovable... A good match at your XBox in hallo, when your'e happy and joyful is much more meaningful for God, than sucrefricing lambs and fighting the Godly wars frownly...

God wants your <3... That's all!
Make peace... I don't care who you are... Just be happy!

 
(=

Matt Boothman

The Nissan Micra of forum members

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17th August, 2006 at 11:33:28 -

"and by the years it was turned on to be a stricting rule system that brings wars, depress and distruction"
Au contraire, that's exactly what religion was made for. To repress people, to keep them in a cage locked with guilt.

And it's impossible to know whether there is a God or not, and even if there were, you couldn't guarantee he wants your heart.

 
http://soundcloud.com/normbo - Listen to my music.

Deleted User
17th August, 2006 at 20:34:53 -

the world's perspective is that everyone is equal, and that there should be peace between us. Doesn't it seem stupid to have a religion that would deal in hurting others when almost everyone else agrees you should act with peace to others? why that may or may not be true, it doesnt matter. its disagreement between to religious groups that caused this war, not neccesarily religion itself. even though religion often causes disagreement.

 

Retired Kliker Lazarus

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17th August, 2006 at 21:39:39 -

Why are we still fighting about this?

The conflict is over for the time being (give it another week or so ).

 
Fine Garbage since 2003.
CURRENT PROJECT:
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Radix

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17th August, 2006 at 23:51:16 -

It'll last for a while, probably. Hezbollah will take the time to capitalize on the propaganda potential for recruitment and funding before they start goading again.

And you ignore the hypocricy in that.
Unlike most people, I do not consider Israel to be the only place where Jews can live.

Non sequitur. Please address the point.

So what, then, are we to benefit from abandoning Israel?
Is peace good enough for you?

You have presented no evidence that cutting ties with Israel will lead to peace, other than an assumption that assistance will indirectly piss of people that are already pissed off. On the other hand your only response to my reasons for keeping them as allies has been some flawed analogies to states that don't do what you think they do and incredulity.
Something I'm sure you'll find under the logical fallacies category on wikipedia.

 
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Retired Kliker Lazarus

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18th August, 2006 at 15:47:02 -

The Jews won't give up, and the Muslims won't give in. It's pointless.

 
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Teapot

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21st August, 2006 at 02:10:28 -

I'm not in support of Hezbollah. But as a nation state and not an organisation, Israel have a responsibility to act justly and maturely, which really doesn't seem to be happening.

 
n/a

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21st August, 2006 at 06:55:35 -

As long as LIJI gets killed by a katyusha rocket i am happy

 
n/a

Retired Kliker Lazarus

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21st August, 2006 at 09:31:49 -

Sad news; Lilj died of aids at 1:30 am Saturday.

Image Edited by the Author.

 
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CURRENT PROJECT:
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-Working in television.

-Zach-



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21st August, 2006 at 14:39:05 -

I'm kinda starting to get sick of all this news about the middle East, I mean, god, this stuff will never end, people are constantly fighting over their religions, and people are blowing themselves up and everything. It's still a big deal but it's getting a little annoying.

 
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Radix

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21st August, 2006 at 16:27:54 -

you know what would be good

not bumping this topic anymore

 
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Muz



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1st September, 2006 at 04:46:11 -

I'd have to say that both sides are equally evil in this case. The only difference between Israel and whatever terrorists it fights next is that Israel kills them in front, drops bombs right from the air, killing plenty of combatants, but about as many civilians. The "terrorists" are doing just the same thing, cept they're striking the flanks or suiciding themselves, killing well... anyone, but nobody here sees that because of all the Lebanese/Palestinian babies riddled with bullets. Nobody's right either way... some innocent civilian keeps getting killed along the way.

As a Muslim, I'm supposed to be biased towards the anti-Jews by culture, but I just don't see it that way. Dammit... the Jews, Muslims, Christians were supposed to be cousins, but thanks to bloodthirsty extremists, history just doesn't turn out that way. All these religions were/are peaceful religions by nature. Not sure about Judiasm, but Christianity encourages its followers to turn the other cheek, Islam encourages people to fight back when they're being attacked, but not to initialize an attack and to forgive as soon as they surrender. Heck, Islam isn't even supposed to be divided into sects, if ANY of them read the Quran.

Like all wars, there's not really much we can do except watch, let in refugees, and heal the wounded. Giving weapons would lead to deadlier wars, condemnation, trade embargoes leads to taking sides. This could be the start of a WW3, but I really hope not.

I don't believe in the "Axis of Evil" trash that Bush tries to promote, all of the 'axis of evil' nations aren't even good friends. North Korea isn't half the threat it thinks it is and far less than what everyone else believes. If it wasn't for the nuclear capabilities, Japan, China, even Russia could wipe them out with little effort. Iran however, is a threat if it ever wanted to be, and if the US thinks that they can overrun it like in Iraq, the Americans should be prepared to see a war far more horrifying than Vietnam and both Gulf wars combined...

 
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.

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LIJI

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I like penguins
1st September, 2006 at 05:01:19 -

http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20041020_MemriTV_Popup/video_480x360.asp?ai=214&ar=1050wmv
Useful info about muslim terrorists.

 
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ben mercer

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3rd September, 2006 at 14:37:29 -

It seems fairly apparent to me that Hezbollah are manipulating Israel in order to (Ironically) rally support for their cause. Israel has a reputation for disproportionate responses, Hezbollah know this, ergo they know that if they repeatedly fire rockets into Israel, then Israel will lash out wildy at them, and most likely end up killing lots of innocent civilians. As a result of this, newpapers feel that is their duty to flaunt images of dead women and children (because men apparently don't matter) and couple it to a biased and narrow minded report on the goings on. I think it is sick that papers use these images as propoganda for their biased media campaigns. The terrible thing is many people will lap it up without seeing the bigger picture.

This inevitably leads to a rise in hatred for israel, and many young and immpressionable youths in the middle east will know no better than to join terrorist groups such as Hezbollah, in the belief that they are fighting Israel for the honour of their family members who were wiped out by Isreal's cumbersome military fist. I have a friend who is from Lebannon and I was shocked at how almost supportive he was of Hezbollah at first- the idea that someone was killing innocent people in his home country made him a little crazy for a while and that is understandable.

Muslim is not itself a violent religion, but it is a religion nonetheless, and I find myself a bit of an empiricist when it comes to beleif systems. In the wrong hands, and in the right situation, religion can very easily be used to manipulate people. I mean by having a religion you base your beleif system around faith. In my opinion "faith" in this context means beleiving and trusting in something that has no proof to suggest that it ever existed. So many muslims have "faith" in (they put their unwavering trust in) religeous clerics who are actually corrupt, power hungry and willing to use people who trust them as explosive ammunition to suit their own ends. Which to anyone in their right mind, is totally sick beyond beleif.

The other thing (that I think Lazarus hasn't taken into account) is that religion changes over time (you can say what you will about this view but it is well founded). This is one of the main reasons why I can't take it seriously as something to influence what I believe. Galileo was a famous astronomer, probably most famous for discovering that the earth orbits the sun (not the universe revolves around the earth). This is common knowledge now, but in poor Galileo's time the christians didn't like it, so they threw him into jail for the rest of his life, so what happened in between? Have they tipexed that bit of the bible that says "if anyone makes a significant astronomical discovery, thow them into jail"? Something like that. So this is a small piece of evidence to suggest that the "word of god" is not quite the same as it was originally, and you will easily find more (evidence) if you search for it. So the likelyhood is that the bible probably did have something akin to "kill the infidels" in it once, but not any more, thanks to those tipex happy priests.

Anyway these are my views and I'll stop now

P.S. Circy I'm with you, George Galloway is an idiot


Image Edited by the Author.

 
Stuckboy

JC Denton: "I know your UNATCO killphrase: Laputan Machine."
Gunther Hermann: "I - am - not - a - machi --"
JC Denton: "Sticks and stones..."

Muz



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3rd September, 2006 at 23:12:59 -

I'd have to say I agree with all that, except that I've seen dead men and the crazy clerics actually DO believe in what they say. They just twist and warp a fact. "Jihad" was supposed to violent strictly only for self-defense, but apparently, it's the driving force for a lot of the suicidal terrorists. After all, if you're sick of life, what better way to end it than to convince yourself that you'll be entering a better one?

 
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.

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ben mercer

Possibly Insane

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4th September, 2006 at 05:49:26 -

Yeah I suppose a lot of the clerics probably do beleive the stuff they are telling people, but chances are many of them are puppets (to almost the same extent as they people they incite violence to) for those that are higher up the ladder i.e. warlords.



 
Stuckboy

JC Denton: "I know your UNATCO killphrase: Laputan Machine."
Gunther Hermann: "I - am - not - a - machi --"
JC Denton: "Sticks and stones..."

Muz



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4th September, 2006 at 21:31:08 -

I have some respect for the warlords though. They're geniuses. Evil geniuses who should be destroyed, of course, but interesting nonetheless.

Once all this violence lies in the past, all those middle eastern terrorists with their long beards and arabian accents will be romanticised like the imperial age pirates who have missing limbs and scurvy. Angry mobs with AK-47s will be as cool as a bunch of pirates boarding and pillaging a ship.

 
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.

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ben mercer

Possibly Insane

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6th September, 2006 at 14:46:02 -

"Angry mobs with AK-47s will be as cool as a bunch of pirates boarding and pillaging a ship"

Hahahahaha yeah... I never thought about it like that, but it's probably true

 
Stuckboy

JC Denton: "I know your UNATCO killphrase: Laputan Machine."
Gunther Hermann: "I - am - not - a - machi --"
JC Denton: "Sticks and stones..."

Deleted User
6th September, 2006 at 17:12:48 -

we should hold a pirate party = an annual one.

 
   

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