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HorrendousGames

Sourpuss

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VIP MemberEvil klikerGame Of The Week Winner
1st December, 2010 at 18:47:26 -

Actually, most people who fit into the classic libertarian category would be guys like Adam Smith and Thomas Jefferson, and most of which are primarily against the free-market, and more about trying to get everyone to succeed (despite being misquoted to state otherwise).

Part of the issue with your situation doesn't have to do with capitalism itself, although more of an issue with American life in general. As I stated before, in the current state America is in, it has very little social mobility. In poorer families, there is no transfer real transfer of wealth as there is with richer families, so in other words, every time a kid from a poor family turns 18, their economic situation starts over, so they might as well be another poor immigrant. Normally, this shouldn't be an issue but stuff costs money, and a lot of it. Everything has a price tag, even things that don't really need it. Socialism doesn't lower the cost of anything, it just gets someone else to pay for it, which won't solve the issue if the country runs out of money, or the currency busts.

It's true that America has very few government owned businesses, but that alone does not make it a capitalist country, it only has capitalist features. Same as it is not a socialist country but has socialist features, and the list goes on. America basically has this policy of trying to please everyone, so it stays in the middle of the road (with the exception of war and religion, the two big one's that should be in the middle of the road). That leads to a capitalism that only effects the rich and a welfare system that only helps the nobody at all. Socialism or capitalism, I honestly don't care, America just needs to pick something and stick to it.

All in all, all I really would like is to not be subjected to labor for basically nothing, the ability to work and enjoy the fruits of my labor, and to not be forced to obey people that don't know me that want to force me to do what I don't feel I need to be doing or want to force me to believe exactly how they believe.

 
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Matt Boothman

The Nissan Micra of forum members

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1st December, 2010 at 20:53:21 -

Hard not to agree with your last statement. Wouldn't we all? The point I'm trying to make is that capitalism, by very definition, causes this situation (private ownership of production, the wage labour that results from this, the fact that 90% of people work for the profit of somebody else higher 'up the chain' than them). I, too, would like to enjoy the fruits of my labour, but at the minute, someone who employs me is enjoying my fruits while I sit here sucking seeds.

The reason why socialism failed was because it doesn't mix with any other system. So like you say, a country with socialist features is typically very muddled and inefficient.

 
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HorrendousGames

Sourpuss

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VIP MemberEvil klikerGame Of The Week Winner
2nd December, 2010 at 20:32:55 -

But that's corporatism you're talking about, not capitalism. I'm talking about capitalism in the terms of you have a skill, you can utilize that skill and use it to make money. What we have now is corporatism, where in order to do anything you need to have a ridiculous amount of money by in which you have to earn by working for larger corporations.

I used to work for a company called IPA, ironically that was the telemarketing desk job I worked for. Their goal was to call up small businesses and essentially tell them how to run it to make profit, which sounds great, but they really don't do that well of a job since they're attacking it at the wrong angle. Their philosophy is that these people just don't know how to run a business, when really it's the fact that most small businesses that operate legit have to adhere to these ridiculous standards, and even just the cost of running a business (most of which should never be necessecary for a small business, such as insurance and other unnecessary taxes). About 90% or so small businesses will fail in the first year because of this, which is why only about 5% of Americans work for themselves. That's not capitalism, that's corporatism. And this is created not by regulation, but regulation that favors corporations. I think that's why most American's fear politicians, since there are plenty that are corrupt enough to do whatever for the lobbyists, which leads to bad regulation. I don't mind regulation, but it has to be regulation that actually benefits a majority of society, and not just the few holding all the cash. So, in other words, socialism will never work in America, because it gives bad people more power, which of course could be said about capitalism if most of these larger corporations aren't brought to their knees first.

 
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That Really Hot Chick
now on the Xbox Live Marketplace!

http://marketplace.xbox.com/en-US/Product/That-Really-Hot-Chick/66acd000-77fe-1000-9115-d80258550942

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Matt Boothman

The Nissan Micra of forum members

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2nd December, 2010 at 20:55:14 -

Mate, trust me, I'm talking about capitalism. What you said is nothing to do with capitalism. Having a skill and using it to make money isn't an economic system, it's just an individual ideal. In fact, in its most explicit terms, capitalism isn't about having skills, it is about having wealth or a means of producing wealth (ie capital). Hence why stupid, corrupt and otherwise completely useless people can also be the richest.

Socialism will never work in America because there is no call for it, not because "it gives bad people more power". Americans immediately baulk at the idea that capitalism isn't the best idea, like you have done. They tell you that capitalism is the natural way and gives you more freedom, despite the logical fallacy inherent in this (like you've just said, only 5% of Americans work for themselves, how is this freedom for the 95%?). If you work for someone else, and you work only to make those people a profit, your life depends on their continuing employment - you are a slave. If everyone worked for themselves, that would BE socialism.

Read Animal Farm by George Orwell if you haven't already done, sums up my argument in better words than I could ever muster.

 
http://soundcloud.com/normbo - Listen to my music.

HorrendousGames

Sourpuss

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VIP MemberEvil klikerGame Of The Week Winner
2nd December, 2010 at 21:35:49 -

Oh, trust me, I know capitalism isn't even close to the best idea, and you've made some very good points and have made a very strong case about socialism, I'm merely arguing for the sake of arguing at this point, I should have probably have made that clear. It's apparent that we have a very different definition for certain things, but that's no surprise, I tend to define things differently, if not incorrectly than most people. Obviously, we're both looking for the same thing, just different ways of getting there.

I haven't read Animal Farm for quite sometime, although I do remember the most of it being about the story of Stalin/Lenin and Trotsky. It did leave me feeling that if Trotsky were successful over Stalin, the world would have a much different perspective of Socialism/Communism. I do have to let you know, America is horrible when it comes to thinking differently, to the average American, most anything different is considered Satan or a filthy Communist. I try to be at least a little better than that.

 
/-=?=-/-=?=-/-=?=-/-=?=-/-=?=-/-=?=-/-=?=-/-=?=-/-=?=-/-=?=-/-=?=-/-=?=-/-=?=-/-=?=-/-=?=-/-=?=-/-=?=-/-=?=-/-=?=-/-=?=-/-=?=-/-=?=-/
That Really Hot Chick
now on the Xbox Live Marketplace!

http://marketplace.xbox.com/en-US/Product/That-Really-Hot-Chick/66acd000-77fe-1000-9115-d80258550942

http://www.create-games.com/project.asp?view=main&id=2160

Ricky

loves Left For Dead 2

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Has Donated, Thank You!Game of the Week WinnerVIP MemberWii OwnerHero of TimeGOTM Winner! - November 2009I am an April Fool
6th December, 2010 at 09:49:10 -

Disney says to pay your taxes





 
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