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nim



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21st February, 2008 at 05:12:47 -

Edit: http://www.indiegames.com/blog/2008/02/announcement_igf_2008_winners.html#more

Well. Crayon Physics Deluxe winning the grand prize wasn't something I was expecting; I thought it would be either World of Goo or Audiosurf. Crayon Physics is cute and stuff, but it's like an engine and not a lot more.

Also, I'm surprised that Noitu 2 wasn't listed for the "Excellence in Visual Art" category. I wanted Konjak and cactus to win something.

Also (also!), as one of the Indiegamer commenters said, Audiosurf winning the "Excellence in Audio" category is a little weird since it just plays your mp3s and the only sounds contained within the actual game are a few simple effects. I'd consider the audio processing and beat matching to be a programming achievement rather than anything else.

Lots more to say, but I feel disappointed with some of the results this year.

So, like, omg discuss!!

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nim



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21st February, 2008 at 05:25:11 -

And while I'm on the subject of independent games, do you think that events like the IGF should be getting some exposure on the front page of TDC? There's a much larger indie games community outside of TDC, and by not acknowledging it TDC is voluntarily keeping itself inside a klik bubble. Often MMF games get recognised in the larger indie gaming community (Knytt, Bonesaw, The Underside) so I think TDC should be embracing the fact that we are part of it, 'klik & play' stigma regardless.

 
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21st February, 2008 at 06:42:20 -

To be honest I'm not surprised. K I'll admit Noitu Love 2 looks beautiful but it's still pimping old fashioned pixels. I just can't see that kind of thing winning the grand prize. It just doesn't push past the late SNES style visuals, something all previous winners have.
What did catch me off guard was the winner. Crayon Physics Deluxe does look friggin sweet and before I played Audiosurf I thought it was going to win.

Audiosurf got my vote Audience vote.

 
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21st February, 2008 at 06:44:33 -

After playing the non-deluxe version, crayon physics was probably on the bottom of my list though.

I can't really imagine any way the deluxe version improves it enough to match Noitu 2

 
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Muz



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21st February, 2008 at 21:14:18 -


And while I'm on the subject of independent games, do you think that events like the IGF should be getting some exposure on the front page of TDC? There's a much larger indie games community outside of TDC, and by not acknowledging it TDC is voluntarily keeping itself inside a klik bubble. Often MMF games get recognised in the larger indie gaming community (Knytt, Bonesaw, The Underside) so I think TDC should be embracing the fact that we are part of it, 'klik & play' stigma regardless.


I think the rest of the indie game community is cool.. but the gaming world changes so much and so fast that I don't really bother. Most of the indie community is littered with sucky games that win awards. I take it about as seriously as I take the Grammys (where the sucky song with the most airplay often wins).

I'm sick of how the indie gaming community has turned out. It started off as a bunch of people who just wanted to make and share games. Now it's about who makes better games, who's more skilled, who's a n00b, who's game is more complicated, more artistic, whatever. Some of them go so far as to inspire people to inspire people to overthrow the game industry and give an 'inspiring' sucky, boring, pointless, violent game a 9 out of 10.

Can't making games be just a hobby anymore? If I liked gardening, it doesn't mean that I want other pesky gardeners from the pesky l33t local gardener's club to tell my how much my plants suck and compare them to genetically engineered crops. Nor would I care if they start a revolution with home-made vegetables against mass market produce.

Of course, my opinion does not reflect the opinions of all the other admins. I'm sure that they'll put it on the front page if they knew about it

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Ski

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21st February, 2008 at 21:23:21 -

I have to agree, it does seem about who can win deals, awards and who's the best.

 
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22nd February, 2008 at 03:09:03 -

Competition is only natural, human nature.

I didn't think that Crayon Physics should have won the grand prize personally. There weren't many games I really liked this year, but I actually loved Fez. Glad that won something.

 
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22nd February, 2008 at 06:36:59 -


Originally Posted by Nim
And while I'm on the subject of independent games, do you think that events like the IGF should be getting some exposure on the front page of TDC? There's a much larger indie games community outside of TDC, and by not acknowledging it TDC is voluntarily keeping itself inside a klik bubble. Often MMF games get recognised in the larger indie gaming community (Knytt, Bonesaw, The Underside) so I think TDC should be embracing the fact that we are part of it, 'klik & play' stigma regardless.



I think it's fine the way it is. IIRC Gamemaker has its own little forum too. And the Clickteam forum is far too formal to be used all the time.
We have the isolated bubbles where we can grow and develop, and the big communities and sites to spread into once we've earnt our wings. Or what have ye. I think self-contained works for TDC.

 
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markno2



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22nd February, 2008 at 07:08:24 -

Knytt Stories deserved that #1 place. :{

 
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nim



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22nd February, 2008 at 14:20:09 -


Originally Posted by Dr. James
To be honest I'm not surprised. K I'll admit Noitu Love 2 looks beautiful but it's still pimping old fashioned pixels. I just can't see that kind of thing winning the grand prize. It just doesn't push past the late SNES style visuals, something all previous winners have.



Then it's a real shame that traditional pixel graphics aren't appreciated by the IGF panel. Fez deserved to take home the Excellence in Visual Art prize, but I'm confused that Noitu wasn't even in the running. Anyone who can single handedly recreate the look, pacing and direction of games like Contra 3 and Metal Slug definitely should be up for some kind of related prize.

As for the Grand Prize, I didn't have high hopes for Noitu either - it's imaginative and detailed to perfection, but its gameplay roots are still traditional - but I didn't expect Crayon Physics to take it. CP is like a very polished engine that you play over and over, whereas Noitu 2 has a storyline, characters, surprises and a ton of imagination behind it. Only a few of the other IGF finalists games have a storyline.

I personally enjoy story driven games than engine driven games and given the choice between two extreme examples, I'd rather play an incredibly linear game (eg. Axelay; Mario) than an experimental sandbox game*. Perhaps this is one of the reasons that Half Life 2 was so successful - it has a good story and sense of progression, but also had a mad physics engine that you could play around with when you didn't feel like running away from ant lions.

Edit: *having said that, story driven games are harder to create, for me at least!

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Josh Whelchel

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22nd February, 2008 at 16:26:12 -

Nim, I have to agree with everything you said.
Plus, TDC really needs to wake up and get in the bigger picture, if that's its goal. The indie gaming community is often, but I can't help but feel like MMF games would be drowned out by other news if that were to happen. It is, after all, the Daily Click. It's a double edged sword, though, because I would love TDC to evolve into something bigger.

 
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Jimbob

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23rd February, 2008 at 06:02:18 -


Originally Posted by Muz

I'm sick of how the indie gaming community has turned out. It started off as a bunch of people who just wanted to make and share games. Now it's about who makes better games, who's more skilled, who's a n00b, who's game is more complicated, more artistic, whatever. Some of them go so far as to inspire people to inspire people to overthrow the game industry and give an 'inspiring' sucky, boring, pointless, violent game a 9 out of 10.



I'm not sure where this is actually applicable?
Games which are complicated, artistic, made by skilful people are often highlighted wherever I've looked in the indie community. But so are really simple traditional games that are purely from making games as a hobby. The IGF is part of a professional game developers conference, so yes, while it does have an awards ceremony, it's for those who are attempting to make games as a means of making a living (should those people not be rewarded too?).

And if you are making games as a hobby, then surely you want to get better at it? Regardless of your initial 'level' I think that's the case. So why not compare against 'better' games and see how in your next game you can improve. I don't that has ever not been the case, despite what you suggested.

And as far as mentioning the wider world of independent development, I dunno if it's needed here, I go to TIGS or the IndieGames Blog for that sort of stuff and I'm not sure replicating the same info here would of benefit to many people. Maybe TDC should have a poll on whether you want to take game development (or any aspect of) as a serious future career and see where that gets you...

 
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24th February, 2008 at 02:33:17 -


Originally Posted by Nim

Originally Posted by Dr. James
To be honest I'm not surprised. K I'll admit Noitu Love 2 looks beautiful but it's still pimping old fashioned pixels. I just can't see that kind of thing winning the grand prize. It just doesn't push past the late SNES style visuals, something all previous winners have.



Then it's a real shame that traditional pixel graphics aren't appreciated by the IGF panel. Fez deserved to take home the Excellence in Visual Art prize, but I'm confused that Noitu wasn't even in the running. Anyone who can single handedly recreate the look, pacing and direction of games like Contra 3 and Metal Slug definitely should be up for some kind of related prize.

As for the Grand Prize, I didn't have high hopes for Noitu either - it's imaginative and detailed to perfection, but its gameplay roots are still traditional - but I didn't expect Crayon Physics to take it. CP is like a very polished engine that you play over and over, whereas Noitu 2 has a storyline, characters, surprises and a ton of imagination behind it. Only a few of the other IGF finalists games have a storyline.

I personally enjoy story driven games than engine driven games and given the choice between two extreme examples, I'd rather play an incredibly linear game (eg. Axelay; Mario) than an experimental sandbox game*. Perhaps this is one of the reasons that Half Life 2 was so successful - it has a good story and sense of progression, but also had a mad physics engine that you could play around with when you didn't feel like running away from ant lions.

Edit: *having said that, story driven games are harder to create, for me at least!

Image Edited by the Author.



I agree completely which is why this year was so disappointing for me. Audiosurf is novel, crayon physics (non-deluxe) was ok for an hour, but games will always be about content to me.

 
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Rikus

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24th February, 2008 at 15:29:47 -

About the DC bubble,

its funny because i have been thinking about this a lot in the past couple of months, with the indie community growing and things like XNA and the WII-Ware coming up its pretty exciting stuff to see things growing for amateur game developpers.

And personally myself i have been getting more and more interested for things in the indie world.

What i was thinking about and i still have to discuss this with club to have a seperate "site" within the site for just indie-news, downloads and reviews.

Since we use the domain "create-games.com" its a pretty open-ended domain name wich i decided on purpose at the time. We could have 2 domains, 1 pointing at the DC the other pointing at the Indie section of the site, or we could point a url to either one. But both still connected in a way maybe even using the same database, with the abbility to cross over but not by much.

This way the Daily Click can stay in its own "click bubble" and another site could handle all the indie news, reviews and games while still using the Daily Click's very impressive structure and coding and community feeling wich i believe not many sites have.

I'll ask clubby what the best way would be to implement this and your comments and suggestions are welcome. I do highly believe that this site should grow.

What i want to avoid however is to have one site were click and indie mix together since that would for sure put the clicking games to much into the background.

Let me know


 
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Rikus

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24th February, 2008 at 17:43:12 -

Actually i had a really good talk with club, we might just end up with a new site using the dc's structure (reviews,downloads,projects) but with a fresh new name, database etc) The site would be seperate from the dc but will be similar in setup however it would be geared to indie games. More news on this later But let me know your opinions on this.

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24th February, 2008 at 17:52:19 -

Sounds very cool indeed

 
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24th February, 2008 at 17:52:49 -


Originally Posted by Rikus
let me know your opinions on this.


Erm.

DO WANT!

Edit: Seriously, there are hardly any klik sites out there, why not have another?

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24th February, 2008 at 18:13:07 -

Meh, I dunno. I'm happy with there being a few big indie sites out there and specific (Click, Gamemaker et al) dedicated forums. And of course the super formal CT forums.

Just don't go breaking TDC

 
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24th February, 2008 at 18:14:57 -

Well the site would be a site for indie developers to post there projects/demos and games on it but also to get feedback on them. This would include every developer language out there including click software but mostly it would be setup for developers who are going into the next step like selling there software. The news part of the site would focus on Indie-Development as a whole including XNA.

 
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24th February, 2008 at 19:21:56 -

Hmm, well I don't plan on doing anything major (game-wise anyway) with MMF2 so I guess if thats what the new site would focus on then I wouldn't really be contributing or anything... BUT! For the people out there that do want to move on to other other programming tools or to start selling games then for them I think it's a good idea.

 
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Muz



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24th February, 2008 at 20:32:01 -

Jimbob:
Sorry, I'm just quite annoyed at the general direction the indie gaming community goes

I don't mind comparing myself to better people. That's how I improved the most and how most other people improved. I mind it when people who are no good at anything else compare people's experiments to their best work or when someone compares a fun, but sloppy game to another professional indie gamer working for a living.

There was a game called "Arena" once. It was great, a lot of fun, very simple, but allowed you to play in many different ways. But people hated it because it was sloppy, poor graphics, and lasted short (if you just play it one way). There are also a lot other great little games that many of the indie gaming "community" refused to acknowledge unless everyone else did: Gladiator, Crime Fighter, Superstar, Exile, Conquest of Elysium, Titans of Steel. CoE, ToS, Exile all 'evolved' into Dominions, ToS: Warring Suns, Avernum, and made enough money for their authors to live on. But the indie community certainly didn't help them :/

Hmm.. Gladiator, CF, and Superstar also seem to be on a lot sites, so that's OK . I'm still quite annoyed that the suckier, unoriginal games get a higher rating on those sites :/

Don't get me wrong.. I fully support the klik and indie gaming, I just don't like how biased the communities can be

 
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