I would like to create open topic for this issue, which to be honest was a bit terrifying for me lastly.
Like you know more or less I'm trying to promote Clickteam and their products whenever I can. This year I had several alternatives to do so and always I got hit by one statement (which is not painful only for me, but also other devs which meet it):
Why there is no Freeware version of Klik related product?
And argumentation that we've got demo is pointless because like I pointed it out to CT staff at Click Convention 2010 first of all it's NOT UPDATED AT ALL - and it should be updated as well as full version, secondly it's 30 days only with no option to check HWA, Java, or any of extensions.
So maybe I will start where I was trying to do it:
Buckinghamshire New University (I'm student at BSc Digital Games Design) - they use GM because it's cheap and has got a free version which can be used by students, who like we know don't have too much money.
3rd Game Developers Convention - Convention in Poland where I had a stand against Game Maker and RPG Maker, which have got free editions which was pointed out also by programmers.
Szczecin Gameshow - International Expo where I had stand and whole panel. Also it was pointed out that the price for software is quite high but appropriative but at the same time why there is no 'learning' version which would be limited but free to test out for everyone?
Jagiellonian University - On Game Studies classes I had invitational lecture where I had to compare UDK, Unity, GM and Kliks - where Kliks won thanks to their adaptation, possibilities and exporters but fail because of the lack of version which would allow everyone to test it out (all other software's have got a free licence, nevertheless they are big or small). But they still didn't decide on the software and I'm trying to convince them to Kliks but Educational Licence is available only on UK store!
Technical University of Lodz - I'm trying to organize there a next year GDC but also I had to ask about their gaming degrees and again they are using GM (as well as other Polish universities) because of the same reason as Bucks New Uni.
Games Research Association of Poland - I had a talk there more about game creation/market part but I mentioned during talk about middleware, as well I discussed with all those PHd's and so on and they also where pointing out that free version (not time limited, or even time limited but giving during this time all or almost all possibilities like it is with Adobe CS) is more convincing to both lecturers as well as students.
I know that I had talk at that with almost all CT staff members, as well as, I got know few reasons why it's so (where I don't agree with all of them, but it's my POV). But I know that it is pointed out as well by other game devs for example on jams like Global Game Jam, or other initiatives, where they would like to test software and the can't and I won't sent them to one very similar one, because NO.
(just made a copy if anyone on CT would decide to move/modify/remove it).
You make a very good point, and you have research to back it up. Clickteam is not making the most of its product - as a result, the userbase and the community is also hit. People at the forefront of the small games-making world (ie lecturers and students) do not use Click products and therefore it has no future. Why give GM a head-start? Once a student gets used to GM and knows how to utilise all its features, he's not going to switch to another product later one with only slightly more functionality.
I congratulate the work you're doing and only wish there was someone in CT with your enthusiasm.
I fully agree, it's a shame. I get about 30 of my students interested in Click products a year, they all download the demo but they don't have the money to buy even TGF2 (they are aged 12-14). A free version of TGF2 (maybe even more stripped down) for schools would give CT many additional users. Most of my students worked with GM and they hate it.
But since there is no free version, I am starting another project (with 4 students) with my own version of MMF2 at my school.
Personally, I think Clickteam should get a bunch of community membersa together for suggestions of mmf3/tgf3, and make the games factory free, but extensionless and have 3 versions of mmf3 (one that would be tgf3, a standard version, and a developer version.)
If you put a million monkeys at a million keyboards, one of them will eventually write a Java program.
The rest of them will write Perl programs.
To be honest Fano you act like you work for CT, and I just don't get it. You're trying to make users side/agree with you, hence why you're posting this both on here and CT, knowing full well it would get locked/deleted over there as the subject has been discussed so many times previously, and you just end up annoying certain people. You're almost starting to interfere, it would seem.
Very interesting, Fanotherpg. I agree with your sentiment and i think a free version of either TGF or MMF is long, long overdue. The Newgrounds free edition is a good start but not far reaching enough, i feel. I think getting something available for everyone to use everywhere is needed.
I'm glad that Clickteam is like always listening to the community voice. I'm glad that they remember one thing. That they are someone, thanks to this community, thanks to us, thanks to people who are using their software and promoting it by our own money in our own time. That they have some respect to that we are discussing it openly not behind their backs, that we share our point of views without spamming them, and that they are free to do with those supportive materials what they want to do.
They give as a Java for Free, they gave HWA for free, they released Flash and Unicode... Now they gave us a free version of TGF2. That's great!
I hate to break it to you guies, but this "free version" of tgf2 is little more than a demo with no time limit so I would hardly call it anything other than an extended demo.
I believe the reason why klik products have been lagging behind in popularity and why the community is shrinking is simply because the clickteam doesn't look at it's competitors. They all have free versions while clickteam is still stuck in the try demo/buy full version business model. They get hundreds of new users every day while clickteam is losing their userbase at an astonishing rate.
And it's not like we are asking for free mmf2 copies because I assume everyone posting here already has one, this is more of a matter of caring for clickteam and for their survival.
If they keep their stubborn ideals they will end up bankrupt, no matter how many flash/wii/xbox/etc exporters they can come up with.
I'm afraid in a couple of years time (at best) me and many others will be telling them "I told you !"
Where did you get the idea that Clickteam are so rapidly losing their userbase? TDC doesn't appear to be as big as it once was, but the Click range is more popular than ever at the moment, especially in the educational market. The trouble is that, as has just been demonstrated, no matter what they do it'll never be enough - after everyone saying that they should have a free version of TGF2, they've just released one with limitations that I would call pretty reasonable (what's your distinction between a free version and a demo?) and that has the advantage of being associated with a popular Flash portal.
I can only say that the concern is appreciated, but I don't think you'll be needing the "I told you so" just yet. They know what they're doing.
IMHO having a non timelimit demo which shows Klik range product power as easiness of exporting to different formats is great step ahead. I just have to install it and check are there any informations in the software itself about other versions.
Well I think it is pretty obvious that clickteam has been losing most of it's userbase in the last few years.
Just compare it to what it was 5 years ago, how can you say it's better than ever ?
Most klik communities died, and the ones remaining (tdc and the clickteam forums, afaik) are nowhere as popular as they once were and there are less and less klik games being released. Go the unity or game maker forums for example and you'll be astonished by how many active developers they have and how many games are released every day. Clickteam once had a similar userbase, nowadays they can't even be compared.
As for what I consider to be the difference between a demo and a free version:
A demo is exclusively meant to showcase the full product and not meant to be used for any serious project because it is too limiting, while a free version has some features cut from the full version but can be used normally with no need to buy the full thing to make what you want.
The TGF2 newgrounds edition falls somewhere between both, hence why I called it an extended demo. It's definitely not going free, but it's slightly more than a demo. If you are thinking about making flash games, then you'll face several restrictions, but as long as you're not serious about it then they can be ignored. If you are thinking about making windows games then this is a demo with no time limit, so it's close to useless.
There is still no comparison with unity indie, udk or game maker 8 compared to their full counterparts. Plus it's a feature-incomplete version of the cheaper version (tgf2) of the actual feature complete thing (mmf2) so I'm afraid a lot of people will assume this all there is to it and will not be interested in looking further into clickteam's other products.
Anyway, I really hope you are correct when you say clickteam know what they are doing, but these last years don't really reassure me.
Originally Posted by David Newton (DavidN) Where did you get the idea that Clickteam are so rapidly losing their userbase? TDC doesn't appear to be as big as it once was, but the Click range is more popular than ever at the moment, especially in the educational market.
I don't know.. I'd say it certainly has a lot more awareness, but is actually much less popular. When I mention MMF to people, a lot of them say they know about it, used it, but switched away from it. Or that they're not using it because it's too expensive.
My university uses GM to teach basic game design, because it's a lot simpler to obtain for casual game makers.
Anyway, the topic about free TGF, etc has been around for a while, and Clickteam isn't budging on their business model.
Edited by Muz
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.